End to ski hosting in France

Mountain Addiction wrote:

AllyG wrote:

Mountain Addiction wrote: We own and run our chalet business but because we aren't being paid to host we aren't breaking the law :D

Are you quite sure about that?

yes... People being employed as Ski Hosts are breaking the law.

If you receive remuneration for taking people out on the mountain in any fashion you're breaking the Law. As we don't receive wages, or charge people in any fashion we aren't breaking the law.

I'm not so sure you will be in the clear, if you're running a business which includes offering ski hosting to your clients. As I understand it, the Ski Club of GB is OK because it is a club, and the ski hosts are unpaid volunteers. I think the remuneration clause is to protect those who help with the French ski clubs.

Naturally, I don't actually KNOW the answer to this - I am just guessing. And for your sake I hope I am wrong.

This is what the Ski Club of GB posted up on their website:
Ski Club Leader service unaffected by the hosting ban in France

Tour operator ski hosting on the snow in France has been banned but Leader service will continue

The French court in Albertville led the prosecution against chalet specialist operator Le Ski. Le Ski are in the process of lodging an appeal and are supported by a group of other tour operators whose hosting services have also been affected and withdrawn following the outcome.

Many tour operators offer a ski hosting programme where reps and hosts ski with their guests and help them find their way to the best pistes, restaurants and hot chocolate stops. No instruction is given. The ruling stipulates it is legal requirement to have an appropriate qualification to teach or lead skiing if remuneration is received.

The Ski Club of Great Britain's Leader service remains unaffected by the court ruling because the members that lead in resort are (unpaid) volunteers.

http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/news/story.aspx?storyID=8850

AllyG wrote:

Mountain Addiction wrote:

AllyG wrote:

Mountain Addiction wrote: We own and run our chalet business but because we aren't being paid to host we aren't breaking the law :D

Are you quite sure about that?

yes... People being employed as Ski Hosts are breaking the law.

If you receive remuneration for taking people out on the mountain in any fashion you're breaking the Law. As we don't receive wages, or charge people in any fashion we aren't breaking the law.

I'm not so sure you will be in the clear, if you're running a business which includes offering ski hosting to your clients. As I understand it, the Ski Club of GB is OK because it is a club, and the ski hosts are unpaid volunteers. I think the remuneration clause is to protect those who help with the French ski clubs.

Naturally, I don't actually KNOW the answer to this - I am just guessing. And for your sake I hope I am wrong.

This is what the Ski Club of GB posted up on their website:
Ski Club Leader service unaffected by the hosting ban in France

Tour operator ski hosting on the snow in France has been banned but Leader service will continue

The French court in Albertville led the prosecution against chalet specialist operator Le Ski. Le Ski are in the process of lodging an appeal and are supported by a group of other tour operators whose hosting services have also been affected and withdrawn following the outcome.

Many tour operators offer a ski hosting programme where reps and hosts ski with their guests and help them find their way to the best pistes, restaurants and hot chocolate stops. No instruction is given. The ruling stipulates it is legal requirement to have an appropriate qualification to teach or lead skiing if remuneration is received.

The Ski Club of Great Britain's Leader service remains unaffected by the court ruling because the members that lead in resort are (unpaid) volunteers.

http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/news/story.aspx?storyID=8850

and we are volunteering ourselves free of charge to show our guests round. we receive no remuneration either.

How will they differentiate from a guy showing some 'mates' around on the pistes?

Seems like it will be a tricky one to enforce?

Iceman wrote:How will they differentiate from a guy showing some 'mates' around on the pistes?

Seems like it will be a tricky one to enforce?

From what I've read on fb pages hosts will be recognised if they are there week in, week out with a different set of 'mates'.

verbier_ski_bum wrote: ... Maybe there should be a pan-European standard but French is still entitled to make this standard mandatory as per their current law. And I doubt BASI 1 will ever be sufficient.

Do you think that the BASI 1 wouldn't be a high enough qualification because chalet hosts really need to be more qualified than this to carry out their present job, or because you think the French wouldn't be satisfied with this level of qualification?

I mean, I haven't heard of chalet hosts actually getting into difficulties whilst hosting - like accidentally leading guests off the edge of a cliff or anything like that, and I'm pretty sure if there had been any sort of 'safety' incidents like that we'd have been told about it.

I am hoping that the British will accept the French point of view that chalet hosts should be qualified, and that the French will accept a lower standard of qualification than the full 5 years of instructor training, which I think is what someone said is required to become a fully qualified ski instructor in France.

I do understand that the law as it stands now (as demonstrated by the recent court case in Albertville) makes ski hosting illegal in France unless it is carried out by a fully qualified ski instructor or by volunteers.

But laws are constantly being revised and updated to keep up with changes in modern society. For example, it was only a few years before my grandmother was born that the British law was changed so that married women were entitled to control their own money after marriage.

I don't think there is the remotest chance that the French will change the law, the code du sport applies to all sports not just skiing. British skiers make up about 5% of French market so the actual number of skiers wanting this type of service is quite small.

Ski guiding forms a considerable proportion of the work ski instructors do, my ski instructor mates in Zermatt are often booked for a week just to ski with people, book tables for lunch etc. On Saturday evening one of the mountain guides I know told me she had been employed by a group to guide them along a marked snow shoe trail and at the end she got a 300 Franc tip!

As far as the EU goes, directive 2005/36/EC on the recognition of professional qualifications states that the member states have the right to lay down the minimum level of qualification required to ensure the quality of the services provided on their territory.

"In the case of the professions covered by the general system for the recognition of qualifications, herein after referred to as 'the general system', Member States should retain the right to lay down the minimum level of qualification required to ensure the quality of the services provided on their territory. However, pursuant to Articles 10, 39 and 43 of the Treaty, they should not require a national of a Member State to obtain qualifications, which they generally lay down only in terms of the diplomas awarded under their national educational system, where the person concerned has already obtained all or part of those qualifications in another Member State. As a result, it should be laid down that any host Member State in which a profession is regulated must take account of the qualifications obtained in another Member State and assess whether they correspond to those which it requires. The general system for recognition, however, does not prevent a Member State from making any person pursuing a profession on its territory subject to specific requirements due to the application of professional rules justified by the general public interest. Rules of this kind relate, for example, to organisation of the profession, professional standards, including those concerning ethics, and supervision and liability. Lastly, this Directive is not intended to interfere with Member States' legitimate interest in preventing any of their citizens from evading enforcement of the national law relating to professions."

Mountain Addiction, on your website http://www.mountainaddiction.co.uk/ you state that a day's ski hosting is included in the price of the holiday. How did you get the notion that you were doing this for free? All the 'free' services you provide aren't free at all; they're included in the price.

SwingBeep wrote:I don't think there is the remotest chance that the French will change the law, the code du sport applies to all sports not just skiing. British skiers make up about 5% of French market so the actual number of skiers wanting this type of service is quite small.

So are you suggesting its only British that require ski hosting ?

Thanks very much SwingBeep for your excellent contribution to this thread :)

The only weak point I can see in the French position on this are the words I have put in bold type:

SwingBeep wrote:The general system for recognition, however, does not prevent a Member State from making any person pursuing a profession on its territory subject to specific requirements due to the application of professional rules justified by the general public interest. Rules of this kind relate, for example, to organisation of the profession, professional standards, including those concerning ethics, and supervision and liability. ..."

I would imagine the British would have to argue that it is not in the 'general public interest' for ski hosts to need the same qualifications as ski instructors.

And maybe the French could find some advantage as well in this situation - if their trainee instructors were allowed to work as ski hosts as well, taking holidaymakers of various nationalities around the pistes and restaurants of ski resorts.

I can see why the ESF etc. were annoyed by a situation where unqualified British ski hosts were doing what the French weren't allowed to do. But if they lowered the ski/snowboard qualifications required to work as a ski host then there would be a level playing field again. And perhaps they could lower the cost of ski hosting if it was carried out by trainee instructors, so that more French, British, and other nationalities would be enouraged to hire a ski host.

I think it could be argued that modern ski resorts tend to be much larger than they used to be (as small resorts are linked together), and that the need for ski hosting has arisen partially because of this.