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Ian Wickham wrote:Here we go have a look at this ...... landing in Innsbruck and a few shots of Livigno.

http://gallery.me.com/ianwickham#100059

You had great snow Ian. Its not often you land at Innsbruck when its covered.

I take it Ian you dont like abiding by the rules of use of electronics whilst landing and taking off? LOL

Stewart Dowling wrote:I take it Ian you dont like abiding by the rules of use of electronics whilst landing and taking off? LOL

In my little mind I take the opinion that it is battery operated and so far no planes I have been on have crashed not even landing in a so called difficult airport as Innsbruck :lol:

Stewart Dowling wrote:I take it Ian you dont like abiding by the rules of use of electronics whilst landing and taking off? LOL

I'd really like to know what playing an Ipod or taking a photograph could do to a modern aircrafts avionics, particularly during the first/last 15 minutes of a flight????

We're off to the "hof" for New Year - Cant wait :-)

Interesting video, Innsbruck landing, check out the turn at 40 secs...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKa9ILqgtS4
From Snowheads:

I was lucky in that the airline Crystal were using for flights from Bristol-Innsbruck were operated by Lauda Air, and while all the passengers using UK based airlines were being diverted to Verona, ours still left pretty much on time.

Greater separation between planes.

I believe it was wind direction that got my flight; the approach is along the Inn valley. Steep descent (and climb). Not Cat III, so visibility must be reasonable at a decision height. Needs specially qualified pilots.

We have used Innsbruck and never had a problem, but we have only used Austrian airlines (i.e. Austrian or Lauda). Have merrily trotted off to board a Lauda air plane on time at the same time as a load of BA passengers were trying to find their bags to put on a bus to drive to Munich.

Poor vis caused by snow falling, but runways perfectly clear in typical Austrian efficiency. The planes were all landing fine apart from the UK based airlines as aparently they don't have the necessary radar equipment - steep valley, big planes trying to turn etc. Flights were diverted to Verona and we had to get a coach there. Complete shambles to be honest but that was the tour operator's fault and nothing to do with Innsbruck airport or indeed the weather. Ended up getting shipped to Lake Garda for the night.

Some larger planes cannot make the turn within the Inn valley walls, should they need to abort. From the pilots point of view:
"You need a special Sim Training and special approved app plates. The plates are available to anyone who cares to pay for them through Jeppesen or the Austrian AIP etc. The Airport Authorities specify some special restrictions for Innsbruck and these are listed in the notes to the approach plates. These are that the handling pilot must have practiced an approach, baulked landing, circling approach, go around and departure before flying in to Innsbruck IMC or at night. These can either be done in a simulator with suitably realistic visual representation of the topogorophy or done in VMC at the airfield."

That landing seems to be in a totally different direction, we seemed to semi-circle from west to east, and landed east to west, there was no turn in the valley .

Ian - I have landed from both directions, coming straight down the Inn Valley from the West and landing, and also coming across the airfield, doing a 180 degree turn and landing from the East. It is quite normal for ANY airline to do this there, irrespective of the type of aircraft, and usually depending on wind direction.

You will note at Innsbruck that there are no large aircraft, such as Boeing 777, Airbus A340 or any other kind of wide bodied plane. The UK tour ops tend to use narrow bodied Airbus A320/321/319, Boeing 737 or Boeing 757 aircraft, as do Easyjet with their 737 and narrow bodied Airbus fleet. All of these type of aircraft are CAPABLE of landing at Innsbruck. Lauda Air only operate Boeing 737s as well, so there is not an issue with the kind of aircraft being used here. Other airlines, such as Austrian Arrows, also operate smaller jets such as the Fokker 70 similar to the old DC-9/MD-80.
BA also fly in with 737's or smaller Airbus variants, or could use their 757's.
Thomas Cook, Thomson, First Choice and Monarch all operate the bigger and in my opinion better Boeing 757 aircraft, which are the largest of the narrow bodied planes flying out of the UK to Innsbruck. They hold approx 240 people depending on configuration, and were designed specifically by Boeing to fly out of difficult airfields as they have immense power for a narrow bodied aircraft, and handle particularly well. I have flown into Innsbruck on a Monarch 757, as well as First Choice Airbus A321 which is the closest in size from the Airbus range.

If you fly into Innsbruck with Monarch, the chances are it will be on one of their 757's or possibly an Airbus, often the A321 as this holds the most passengers, but this will obviously depend on demand at the time. However, if you fly into Geneva for example with Monarch, it is more than likely you will end up on one of the wide bodied A310 Airbus, the old bangers with the original VDUs hanging from the roof, 10 across in 2 aisle layouts, because they can land there no problem and make a go around easily if they have to. Its the same at Grenoble, and at busy times in the season they will always fly the maximum number of passengers on 1 plane that they can. The A310 (I think) would not fly into Innsbruck.

The issue here is NOT the aircraft, or anything to do with the spec of the aircraft. It is however related to the pilot who is flying into Innsbruck. He has to have had experience of such an approach or an aborted landing in order to be able to make it should conditions worsen during transit, or choose to divert. The pilot can make the decision to divert should he choose to do so, or his operator can make that decision for him. That is why you might find UK based airlines diverting when others are landing. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the kind of aircraft they are flying, all of which are capable of landing in any conditions allowable.

Not trying to score points Dave Mac, but I did say all along it was not an aircraft issue here. Dave is right in saying that any airline needs special permission from Austro Control:

"Innsbruck LOWI

Authorization for special procedures

Special Approach Procedure West and East, and Special Performance Departure (via RTT/KPT) are possible at Innsbruck airport. As these are NON-ICAO-STANDARD Procedures, Special Authorization is required from Austro Control, in addition to the prescribed special crew/simulator training. Only operators whose pilots are familiar with the mountainous terrain and the other circumstances in the vicinity of Innsbruck, may apply for such permission.

Applications can be made using the following Application Performance Data Form (Version 1, 20.03.2008), and should be sent to:

Austro Control GmbH, Schnirchgasse 11, A-1030 Vienna

or can be mailed to special.procedures@austrocontrol.at or faxed to +43 (0) 51703 76, together with the performance calculations, the relevant pages of the AFM and/or performance program printouts.

Only operators of multi-engine aircraft shall apply for such a permission. Applications should be made at least 6 weeks prior to the intended operation, according to the following guidelines.

The application shall contain:

aircraft and engine type
maximum permissible landing/take off mass
requested MDA
information on the acceleration segment (MAPt, Transition, SOC)
For all engines and one engine out, as well as for ISA +10°C and ISA -10°C (with anti-ice on)

Climb gradient STRAIGHT (in 3500 ft MSL)
Climb gradient IN TURN (in 3500 ft MSL)
IAS
Bank angle
Configurations
Further data as described in the Application Performance Data Form
More information can be found in the following charts and AIP pages, which can be downloaded for this procedure, but may not be used for navigation purposes as the internet is usually updated later than the AIP:

Special LLZ/DME Procedure EAST:

LOWI LLZ/DME Procedure EAST- AIP Chart (AIRAC AMDT 40, 25.12.2003)
LOWI LLZ/DME Procedure EAST- AIP Information (AIRAC AMDT 32, 13.06.2002)
Special LLZ/DME Procedure WEST:

LOWI LLZ/DME Procedure WEST- AIP Chart (AIRAC AMDT 40, 25.12.2003)
LOWI LLZ/DME Procedure WEST- AIP Information (AIRAC AMDT 83, 05.08.2005)
Special Performance Departure (via RTT/KPT)

LOWI Special Performance Departure- AIP Chart 2.24-4-3 (AIRAC AMDT 67, 15.03.2007)
LOWI Special Performance Departure- AIP Chart 2.24-4-3A (AIRAC AMDT 67, 15.03.2007)
Instument Procedures Information

Austrian AIP AD / LOWI 2-16 (AIRAC AMDT 32, 13.06.2002)
Austrian AIP AD / LOWI 2-17 (AIRAC AMDT 32, 13.06.2002)
Austrian AIP AD / LOWI 2-18 (AIRAC AMDT 97, 29.09.2006)"

I thank you )