Driving: kit?

chateaudoz wrote:

Tony_H wrote:

chateaudoz wrote:If you have winter tyres you are unlikely to need chains.

May I be so bold as to say this is a very dangerous statement, and incorrect.
Some countries will not permit you to drive WITHOUT winter tyres on all roads, so you really need to have them on all 4 wheels as a matter of course. But in extreme conditions, roads close to drivers who do not have snow chains, and with that in mind I would suggest you do not travel without chains. Chances are you will not need any, but saying it is unlikely you will need them as a result of having winter tyres is, frankly, wrong, as there is a good chance you might.

What?
You argument is both circular and confirms what I wrote in my own post.
I understand that, as you do not live here in the Alps, you do not have direct day to day experience of winter conditions but my statement IMHO in neither dangerous or incorrect.

Actually, you said "if you have winter tyres you are unlikely to need chains" which in the course of living out there probably means that you dont use them MUCH. However, for someone taking a weeks holiday, it came across as suggesting they really ought not to bother and take the risk of not having them. Which actually translates into taking the risk of not getting to your resort, being fined or impounded, or worse still having a serious accident by not being properly prepared for the conditions.

I fully appreciate your first hand experience, but UK drivers need to be aware that to drive to the Alps they first need winter tyres on their car, and secondly need a set of chains in the boot just in case. Unlikely? Depends on where you're going or what the weather is like, which can of course be very unpredictable.

I have driven to the alps many times and never used winter tyres but always had chains, I guess I have always been pretty lucky with the weather onward to the resort.
But although I had a car in resort I never really used it that much but there have been times when I have had to put the snow chains on when winter tyres would have sufficed.
The main times that I have had to put on chains is getting out of back roads from accommodation, where snow ploughs never do a particularly good job.

Our household has driven to the European Alps every winter from 1992 onwards. We have yet to buy any specific Winter tyres. We have used chains a few times, never been unable to reach a ski resort due to snowy road conditions. Driven in all sorts of car from elderly Toyota saloons to Mini Metro's and more recently soft roaders.

Operating winter tyres myself on one of my vehicles, I know they come into their own not on snow or ice, but in temps below 5c. Obviously this includes snow and ice, but IMO winter tyres should not be considered "good enough" on snow and ice. I believe there are usually signs or police informing you to put chains on.

Calm down guys! :) I'll have both winter tyres and snow chains.

I'm more worried that my new insurance docs haven't come through yet...

...and that snow will be chasing me from Calais all the way!

bandit wrote:Our household has driven to the European Alps every winter from 1992 onwards. We have yet to buy any specific Winter tyres. We have used chains a few times, never been unable to reach a ski resort due to snowy road conditions. Driven in all sorts of car from elderly Toyota saloons to Mini Metro's and more recently soft roaders.

Note to all european drivers - find out when Bandits on the road, and stay in that day )

The problem with driving to the Alps in winter on summer tyres is not that you won't get there and back, but what may happen if you are involved in an accident.

In countries such as Austria where it is mandatory for vehicles to be suitably equipped for winter conditions a reverse burden of proof applies, i.e. anyone who has an accident whilst driving on summer tyres must prove that the accident would still have happened if winter tyres or chains had been fitted. Otherwise the driver is in any event deemed to be partially at fault. http://www.bmvit.gv.at/en/verkehr/roads/safety/tyres.html

Although there is no law regarding the use of winter tyres in Switzerland, if the temperature is below 7*C and you are involved in an accident you will also be deemed to be partially at fault and if you impede the flow of traffic you can be fined.

If the blue snow chain sign is displayed you must mount proper snow chains (snow socks are only permitted in France).

Don't be tempted to fit all weather tires. They are considered to be a safety hazard here, as they perform worse than winter tyres in winter and summer tyres in summer. They also work out more expensive than two sets of proper tyres.