Style and alignment

Trencher wrote:So going back to my original question. If the boots haven't changed and the bindings are not normally canted, how has it been possible for the average skier to go from a feet together stance to a wide stance and still have flat skis, given the limited cuff adjustment ?

It is just a general interest question.

Trencher

The body partially compensates. I'm not certain cuff adjustment will have any effect whatsoever on how flat the ski is on snow. Cuff canting (I think) is solely to align the boot cuff with the tibia, power transmission etc. The business end is the clog bit, and how the foot stands in the boot.

Take your average skier, stand them on a large table in their skis and boots in a skiing stance and shine a torch under the length of the skis. Look for the obvious.(it's what was done for me, way back when I was a lot younger) There was an exercise I simply could not do, I know as "bandy legs". Travel in a straight line move onto (both) inner and outer edges without ending up in a heap. I did not end up in a heap, but simply failed to achieve the both outer edges element.....because I'd spent all my time on my inner edges..apparently, when I thought I was standing flat )

bandit wrote:

The body partially compensates. I'm not certain cuff adjustment will have any effect whatsoever on how flat the ski is on snow. Cuff canting (I think) is solely to align the boot cuff with the tibia, power transmission etc. The business end is the clog bit, and how the foot stands in the boot.

I understand that the body compensates and I've read that the degree to which this should happen is debated among bootfitters. I thought cuff adjustment was for the purpose of obtaining flat skis (after as neutral a stance as possible is obtained through orthotics).

Trencher

I agree with bandit about compensation, effected through knees and hips. You have done that much skiing Trencher, that my suggestion would be you don't read the the body movement as compensation. It just happens for you.

I have seen racing pics where the outer leg is 80% straight, and the inner knee angle less than 90 degs. (Ouch!) But the inner leg was laid tight to the snow, so although the skis faces were in the same plain, the lower legs were not.

I make my disclosure that I am not a racer, and you are Trencher, this is observation ~ because I am interested in what makes skiers turn. :-)

Wibble

sorry i have not replied sooner, been kind of busy round here and not even seen this thread till now

the simple answer

the boot should be set up with the footbed, then the cuff adjustment set so that the shaft of the boot is centred on the leg this should be done with the skier in a neutral stance feet at hip width [outside of boots soles directly below the ASIS [pointy bits front top of pelvis]]

this is the neutral point, the foot moves wider and narrower than this during the turn dependant on terrain, turn radius and speed, it is only when the feet are under the hips that the optimum stance is achieved, as for what happens when the feet are outside of the hip this depends on technique, muscle strength and the bodies ability to adjust position.

think that just about answers it

there are various ways to gain optimum stance in order or how they are done 3 and 4 are often confused and may be done in either order, if both are required i prefer 4 before 3

1 footbed
2 shaft alignment
3 internal canting [adjustment of the zeppa to accomodate the skier in the best dynamic balance] this affects the relationship between the foot and the ankle inside the boot
4 external canting by either planning boots, fitting angled lifters or putting wedges under the binding these methods all affect knee position and joints above the boot....the problem comes when some people are unable to be canted in this way due to lack of available joint space in either the hip or the knee, for these people filling the gaps is the best option ...this may leave them with a knock kneed or bow legged stance but they can run on a flat ski

Thanks cem. That's a great explanation of what a bootfitter is aiming for and should be an inducement to have a boot fitter set up boots if possible.

So I take from that explanation that any deviation from this standard stance set up (based upon boots being hip width apart), should be compensated for naturally by the body. I find it strange that stance beyond that norm is not considered as other stances are being used. It seems to me that once the skis are inclined, set up is less important, but disiplines that require different stances might be best served by the ski being flat without the body compensating ie a racer (wide stance)or a bump skier (narrow stance).

Just my idle ponderings. Thanks again.

Trencher

the set up i am talking about is for the average skier doing a variety of turns on differing terrain, world cup athletes have things done to their stance and set up that no one ever knows about,including boots set for wider/narrower stance..... i remember talking to a mate who used to work for Salomon race department many years ago, his tool box included a lot of fibreglass, resin, aluminium stock and most intresting a selection of paint to make the race boots look like the production boot again...well at least close enough for the cameras on the course....the marketing department have too much say in what goes on IMO

i also remember seeing original ABducted boots on the race circuit....that is normal boots with lolly sticks bonded to the chassis to abduct them a bit in the binding...how safe was that :shock: :shock:...mind you when your DIN is set at 24 then i don't think it would make much difference

cem wrote:the set up i am talking about is for the average skier doing a variety of turns on differing terrain, world cup athletes have things done to their stance and set up that no one ever knows about,including boots set for wider/narrower stance..... i remember talking to a mate who used to work for Salomon race department many years ago, his tool box included a lot of fibreglass, resin, aluminium stock and most intresting a selection of paint to make the race boots look like the production boot again...well at least close enough for the cameras on the course....the marketing department have too much say in what goes on IMO

I'll keep tweeking then :lol:

cem wrote:i also remember seeing original on the race circuit....that is normal boots with lolly sticks bonded to the chassis to abduct them a bit in the binding...how safe was that :shock: :shock:...mind you when your DIN is set at 24 then i don't think it would make much difference

I have some Fischer F9000 with abducted stance. Obviousely very slight, but although I can't say I notice the the abuction, they are my most comfortable boots
Trencher