Snow chains....................????!!

There are two issues with chains. Firstly, in most places you simply don't get chains with hire 4x4s, even 'though, as you say, you will still need them in certain circumstances. I've had this in the USA as well as Europe - it can end up being better hiring a non 4x4 with chains than a 4x4 without. However much you hassle the desk clerk, they simply don't seem to stock the right size.
Second, if you are using your own car from the UK don't assume that chains will even fit. Especially if you're from England. Many English cars get fitted with low-profile wheels which simply won't take normal chains (this includes 4x4s). A lot of chain sales/rental outlets get vague about whether they'll fit OK if you try to pin them down. This is because lower-profile wheels tend to be wider, with the extra width on the inside of the wheel. Chains that fit around the inside of the tyre may foul the suspension/steering. Best thing is to check in your owner's manual.

msej449 wrote:There are two issues with chains. Firstly, in most places you simply don't get chains with hire 4x4s, even 'though, as you say, you will still need them in certain circumstances. I've had this in the USA as well as Europe - it can end up being better hiring a non 4x4 with chains than a 4x4 without. However much you hassle the desk clerk, they simply don't seem to stock the right size.
Second, if you are using your own car from the UK don't assume that chains will even fit. Especially if you're from England. Many English cars get fitted with low-profile wheels which simply won't take normal chains (this includes 4x4s). A lot of chain sales/rental outlets get vague about whether they'll fit OK if you try to pin them down. This is because lower-profile wheels tend to be wider, with the extra width on the inside of the wheel. Chains that fit around the inside of the tyre may foul the suspension/steering. Best thing is to check in your owner's manual.

That's partly true, there's a size problem with chains for some cars certainly but for a lot of cars it's incidental, the real problem is the power of the car and that the linkages on the chains for a Corsa won't do for a 300bhp 4wd :D

ise wrote:

That's partly true, there's a size problem with chains for some cars certainly but for a lot of cars it's incidental, the real problem is the power of the car and that the linkages on the chains for a Corsa won't do for a 300bhp 4wd :D

Hmmm, 300bhp 4wd. That would be a Porsche 911/Celica GT4/Range Rover v8SE/Touareg4.2v8 et al :D
Mind you, it would be quite some achievement to put 300bhp through the wheels on snow :D

The linkages on chains for vehicles with lower profile tyres, and subsequently reduced wheel arch clearances, are flatter. If there is insufficient space Spikes-Spiders may be a workable alternative.

The main issue for bloatmobile chelsea tractors, is that there is simply way too much rubber, and they have a tendency to er...float :mrgreen:

bandit wrote:
Hmmm, 300bhp 4wd. That would be a Porsche 911/Celica GT4/Range Rover v8SE/Touareg4.2v8 et al :D
Mind you, it would be quite some achievement to put 300bhp through the wheels on snow :D

The linkages on chains for vehicles with lower profile tyres, and subsequently reduced wheel arch clearances, are flatter. If there is insufficient space Spikes-Spiders may be a workable alternative.

true, the problem is that spiders and similar get pretty poor reviews and score very badly in independent tests. That's probably irrelevant if it's the only choice you have.

I used to work for Pirelli, and this question of chains came up a lot from dealers. The issue isn't much to do with power, if at all. The issue is that most chains are attached via a ring around the rear of the tyre and wheel. There are some types, like the Spyker, which attach without any rear protrusion, but they all have their downsides. Over the last 10-15 years, more and more English cars have been fitted with low profile wheels as standard, on the assumption that English drivers deal predominantly with wet-weather driving, and there's a school of thought that says these reduce aquaplaning and they certainly improve cornering. So, for example, on my current estate, you can have 15", 16", 17" and 18" diameter wheels. Since the rolling radius has to be the same (i.e. the total diameter including tyre), then the aspect ratio of the tyre itself has to reduce (i.e. the height of the tyre decreases) and this tends to demand that the tyre be wider, in order to maintain the dynamics. To fit a wider tyre poses a problem, however, as the wheel can't project outside the wheelarch, so the extra width is added to the inside of the wheel, resulting in an asymmetric cross-section. So this is why, in my own case, the manufacturer only certifies chains to be fitted to the 15"-diameter wheel, as the 16/17/18" wheels leave less and less space behind the wheel, between the tyre and the suspension. With the front wheels, there's even less usable space, as they also turn. Hence my recommendation that you check your owner's manual - you don't want to discover that the chains fould the steering when you're half way up a mountain, in the dark and snow.

All,

A fascinating and highly relevant thread.

msej449 – Thanks for a great technical review of the issues.

From a personal point of view I certainly found that driving my E55 up to Verbier even with a very light dusting of snow without chains was impossible :oops: The humiliation of a Fiat 500 zooming past on skinny wheels certainly made me realise that 400+ hp is only good some of the time :|

Now whilst I can’t add anything to the issue of availability of chains / their sizes / one brand v another, I would like to suggest some practical things that may make chain usage easier.

1. Maybe the best trick (and probably the quickest in the long run for the beginner) is to jack each wheel up before trying to install the chain. This will allow you better access to the wheel and also allow you to ensure the chain doesn’t foul any brake pipes / suspension parts etc before driving off. As a further point this trick requires a jack (no surprises there!) but in many cases the jack will be under the luggage space in the rear of the car. So as you dash from the baggage collection conveyor to the car hire desk, keep repeating “Take the jack out before putting in the suitcases.” Equally, do the same if you are driving your own car out to the mountains, that is, remove the jack and handle etc. (You may be excused the mantra!)

2. Point 1 is totally useless if you don’t follow point 2. Never, ever, ever (even a little bit) wait until you are stuck before trying to put on the chains. The best plan is to drive until things are starting to look a bit iffy and then turn around and drive back the way you came and find a petrol station with a canopy and good lights. Now you have flat ground, light and protection from the weather (oh, and somewhere to wash your hands when you’ve finished). Sure, you may have to drive a little way in conditions that don’t require chains, and sure you may have to drive slower (a sensible max is probably about 50km/h) but when you pass the poor fools who are struggling in heavy snow in the cold and dark you will thank me! Also, using a car jack on anything but flat, dry ground is probably going to end your happy holiday quicker than you had planned.

3. On this occasion forgo fashion and think practical. I recommend a pair of rubber washing up gloves, (my wife introduced them to me some years ago …) they allow you to retain good tactile feeling whilst stopping you freezing your fingers off. Oh, colour not important.

4. Not always possible for hire cars but if you buy your chains at home, PRACTICE. Pick a warm day (this may not be possible in England) and go out and try the things on. Every second you spend doing this will be paid back 10 times in the mountains.

5. If you are hiring a car and are lucky enough to get chains, do not get out of the car and just lunge at the task. I recommend you sit in the car, explain to the other people (if any) that this will take a little while and that no one (esp. children or partners) should ask “How long are you going to be?” at about 5 minute intervals! I am fairly sure you will find that this tip pays dividends. Now open the chain container, often easier said than done and just look at the chains. On initial inspection they will look rather like a bad day in a torture chamber but most chains are colour coded and the instructions should be relatively intelligible. Take time to identify the various elements of the chain and be sure that you fully understand the instructions. Note that at this point you have not left the car and should still be warm, dry and sane.

6. In my experience the most likely group of motorists to totally ignore point 5 will be a group of (mostly) males aged between 18 and 25. For them the mountain holds no fear and stupid instructions are for wimps. Funny how many beers I’ve received, having fitted chains for them, from groups of shivering, angry, frustrated would-be holiday makers fitting the above description.

7. Lastly, the art of removing the chains is not one to be overlooked. Don’t be too hasty to take them off. Keep driving until you can be sure you don’t need them anymore. Then, again, try and find a petrol station. You shouldn’t need to jack the vehicle up this time but some careful positioning of the clip at the top of the wheel will make things easier. Now unclip the first chain, ensuring that NOTHING is still endangering the nice parts of your car and drive off until the chain is between the front and back wheel. Repeat for the other side. Again the rubber gloves will be a boon here as the wheels, chains and wheel arches will be cold and full of snow and ice.

8. Print this message out and read it during your flight and you may arrive in resort just a little dryer, happier and safer.

Happy motoring,

Jan

Jan I Stenmark wrote:All,

A fascinating and highly relevant thread.

msej449 – Thanks for a great technical review of the issues.

From a personal point of view I certainly found that driving my E55 up to Verbier even with a very light dusting of snow without chains was impossible :oops: The humiliation of a Fiat 500 zooming past on skinny wheels certainly made me realise that 400+ hp is only good some of the time :|

Yes, it's true, we used to have a Fiat 500, and it was wonderful in snow, spraying great rooster tails at the vehicles we passed :D
It may have been small, you may have laughed when you passed us on the motorway....revenge is sweet :lol:

And finally, as ise pointed out on the other thread, a lot of mainland Europeans tend to swap to winter tyres in the winter (when else?). So well before the 'A', 'D', 'CH' etc. and locals are putting on their chains, we Brits will be in the ditch. If you're driving down on English Summer tyres, don't wait for the locals to put their chains on.
If you can afford it, winter tyres are worth considering, as you're only paying for the swap-over twice a year (one car can't wear both sets at the same time, after all) and winter tyres are still good in the UK as they shorten braking distance in temperatures under 8C or so (up to 25%+ if it's below 0C). But I can appreciate it won't be worth it for most people.
What irks me is that a lot of the UK chain sales/hire companies don't explain this, and are happy to provide chains which, for many higher-performance English cars, either won't fit at all, or cut it very fine in terms of potential damage to the suspension/steering.
If you're driving your UK car to the mountains, check the manual, as I said. If your wheel/tyre combination takes chains, that's great. If not, then you may have a problem, even if someone's willing to sell/rent them to you.