J2Ski Forum Posts and Replies by AllyG

billip1 wrote:I agree with Dorset Boy's idea; makes sense. I guess it could marginally put up TOs' prices though, as the cost of the training and licensing scheme would have to be covered somehow. Still, probably not a big deal.

The trouble is that apparently, as the law stands, the ski host would have to be a fully qualified ski instructor up to French standards. And I think someone said earlier that it takes about 5 years to reach this level.

I suggested that maybe BASI Level 1 (which is the introductory instructors level and is fairly easy/cheap/quick to attain) would be sufficient for the ski hosts, but there would have to be a big shake-up in the regulation of snowsports instruction/ski hosting in France before this could happen.

Dorset Boy wrote:This all started in the late 80s when the ESF took Ski Cocktail to court in an effort to prevent them setting up the first private ski school in France. They lost and then turned their attention to the UK tour operators ski guides, with arrests being made every now and then.

The problems include too many Brits thinking they can ski when they should still be taking lessons, and using the guiding services as a free ski school light. There have also been guides over the years who were simply not competent. The protectionist nature of the ESF is another problem.

There should be a simple solution - licence the guides. They should have to undergo a week's mountain safety and leadership course at the start of the season. The course content could surely be agreed between the TOs and a 'reasonable and forward thinking ESF'. Fail and they're out. Also there should be strictly enforced limits to the size of guiding groups and the minimum skiing ability.

It's a shame, and the ESF will do themselves no good in the eyes of many British skiers. The shame is they've picked on a small special TO, Le Ski, and not one of the big boys who might have the financial muscle to take the ESF all the way to Strasbourg....

This is what Dorset Boy said on page 1. Clearly he was streets ahead of me on this, because it took me several pages to realize that he was quite right!

The problem is, that as British holidaymakers who like ski-ing in France, we can't simply change a French sports law to suit ourselves!

It would be great if all concerned could get together and come up with a solution to this problem. But according to what I've read, they did try to do this before the recent court case came up, but they failed to reach an agreement.

Mountain Addiction wrote:
Someone who doesn't want the hosting doesn't pay any less. It's a service we provide for free. There are lots of things 'included' in the price, such as meals, wine, etc, but if someone doesn't want them, they don't pay less. And as we aren't receiving any form of remuneration for the service which we volunteer we aren't breaking the law...

Hi Mountain Addiction,
I'm not trying to 'get at you', I'm just worried that you could be breaking the law without realizing it, and get arrested for it. I assume you are self-employed, so you would have to prove that you weren't 'working' when you're ski hosting.

It's all very well saying it's 'free' but, as the others have said, I don't think it is. I mean, do you also allow guests from other chalet companies to join in? And you do advertise it as part of the holiday package.

If you were really doing this voluntarily, for no remuneration, I don't think you could advertise it on your website, and you'd have to allow others to join in. So you'd be a sort of volunteer resort guide, doing it out of the kindness of your heart, on your day off. And I'm not at all sure how you'd be placed, as far as insurance and public liability etc are concerned, if anyone had an accident whilst ski-ing with you.

I would very much like ski hosting to continue, but I think it's gone past the stage where British chalet operators etc. can pretend they're not doing it because they're not officially paying the ski hosts any wages.

brooksy wrote:

SwingBeep wrote:I don't think there is the remotest chance that the French will change the law, the code du sport applies to all sports not just skiing. British skiers make up about 5% of French market so the actual number of skiers wanting this type of service is quite small.

So are you suggesting its only British that require ski hosting ?

I think this is a very good point Brooksy :thumbup:

I reckon that if the ESF made ski hosting much cheaper (which they could do if they included it as part of the training for their instructors) then probably several nationalities (including the French themselves) would opt for it. And I think the trainee instructors would benefit from engaging with clients in a social way over lunch etc. during the day. It would certainly improve their foreign language skills :)

Thanks very much SwingBeep for your excellent contribution to this thread :)

The only weak point I can see in the French position on this are the words I have put in bold type:

SwingBeep wrote:The general system for recognition, however, does not prevent a Member State from making any person pursuing a profession on its territory subject to specific requirements due to the application of professional rules justified by the general public interest. Rules of this kind relate, for example, to organisation of the profession, professional standards, including those concerning ethics, and supervision and liability. ..."

I would imagine the British would have to argue that it is not in the 'general public interest' for ski hosts to need the same qualifications as ski instructors.

And maybe the French could find some advantage as well in this situation - if their trainee instructors were allowed to work as ski hosts as well, taking holidaymakers of various nationalities around the pistes and restaurants of ski resorts.

I can see why the ESF etc. were annoyed by a situation where unqualified British ski hosts were doing what the French weren't allowed to do. But if they lowered the ski/snowboard qualifications required to work as a ski host then there would be a level playing field again. And perhaps they could lower the cost of ski hosting if it was carried out by trainee instructors, so that more French, British, and other nationalities would be enouraged to hire a ski host.

I think it could be argued that modern ski resorts tend to be much larger than they used to be (as small resorts are linked together), and that the need for ski hosting has arisen partially because of this.

verbier_ski_bum wrote: ... Maybe there should be a pan-European standard but French is still entitled to make this standard mandatory as per their current law. And I doubt BASI 1 will ever be sufficient.

Do you think that the BASI 1 wouldn't be a high enough qualification because chalet hosts really need to be more qualified than this to carry out their present job, or because you think the French wouldn't be satisfied with this level of qualification?

I mean, I haven't heard of chalet hosts actually getting into difficulties whilst hosting - like accidentally leading guests off the edge of a cliff or anything like that, and I'm pretty sure if there had been any sort of 'safety' incidents like that we'd have been told about it.

I am hoping that the British will accept the French point of view that chalet hosts should be qualified, and that the French will accept a lower standard of qualification than the full 5 years of instructor training, which I think is what someone said is required to become a fully qualified ski instructor in France.

I do understand that the law as it stands now (as demonstrated by the recent court case in Albertville) makes ski hosting illegal in France unless it is carried out by a fully qualified ski instructor or by volunteers.

But laws are constantly being revised and updated to keep up with changes in modern society. For example, it was only a few years before my grandmother was born that the British law was changed so that married women were entitled to control their own money after marriage.

Mountain Addiction wrote:

AllyG wrote:

Mountain Addiction wrote: We own and run our chalet business but because we aren't being paid to host we aren't breaking the law :D

Are you quite sure about that?

yes... People being employed as Ski Hosts are breaking the law.

If you receive remuneration for taking people out on the mountain in any fashion you're breaking the Law. As we don't receive wages, or charge people in any fashion we aren't breaking the law.

I'm not so sure you will be in the clear, if you're running a business which includes offering ski hosting to your clients. As I understand it, the Ski Club of GB is OK because it is a club, and the ski hosts are unpaid volunteers. I think the remuneration clause is to protect those who help with the French ski clubs.

Naturally, I don't actually KNOW the answer to this - I am just guessing. And for your sake I hope I am wrong.

This is what the Ski Club of GB posted up on their website:
Ski Club Leader service unaffected by the hosting ban in France

Tour operator ski hosting on the snow in France has been banned but Leader service will continue

The French court in Albertville led the prosecution against chalet specialist operator Le Ski. Le Ski are in the process of lodging an appeal and are supported by a group of other tour operators whose hosting services have also been affected and withdrawn following the outcome.

Many tour operators offer a ski hosting programme where reps and hosts ski with their guests and help them find their way to the best pistes, restaurants and hot chocolate stops. No instruction is given. The ruling stipulates it is legal requirement to have an appropriate qualification to teach or lead skiing if remuneration is received.

The Ski Club of Great Britain's Leader service remains unaffected by the court ruling because the members that lead in resort are (unpaid) volunteers.

http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/news/story.aspx?storyID=8850

Mountain Addiction wrote: We own and run our chalet business but because we aren't being paid to host we aren't breaking the law :D

Are you quite sure about that?