Latest posts for the topic "What do people make of this warning! Off piste safety. "

What do people make of this warning! Off piste safety.

Wed, 26 Jan 2011 09:16:24 GMT

As I am not skiing today I thought I would share something I saw in Tignes / val d'Isere a few days ago and see what other people think!

I have just been skiing in Tignes / Val d'Isere and the 'security de piste' have posted the following notice which is very clear and leaves very little to be misunderstood.

Having talked with the pisteurs about the notice they say this notice has been up for a while and they just change the avalanche risk level on the board.

Quote: "Attention, Off piste wind slabs everywhere, No shovel, No Probe, No Transceiver, No OFF PISTE. Risk 2"

They have also posted a detailed notice board chart at various off piste entry points giving information on rescue times without full kit, where to get info before going off piste, what kit you should carry and the training needed so that you know how to use it. Remember, longer than 15min and the person is not likely to recover.

These signs are in English as well!!

Now my question to everyone, with a notice like this being posted by the piste security authority. Does this count as local authority advice and therefore if you ignore such advice will you invalidate your insurance should you be involved in an accident off piste and need to claim?

Perhaps more importantly, if you are the most experienced person in the group (whether qualified or not), will the local authorities ie. the mountain gendarmes, consider you have been negligent by letting people come and ski with you off piste without the correct gear and knowing how to use it now that a signs like this has been posted and you have not taken due care to make sure your mates have the right kit etc? One person has already posted that they have seen similar signs starting to appear in other resorts.

Please look on photo section in my facebook group for pictures of all these notices. It is public access so know need to be a facebook member.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=134900026541300&v=photos

Re:What do people make of this warning! Off piste safety.

Wed, 26 Jan 2011 09:21:29 GMT

For me I think I would be a complete fool to ignore the signs and take my family off piste, safety first I think.

Re:What do people make of this warning! Off piste safety.

Wed, 26 Jan 2011 09:45:29 GMT

On topic - I don't buy insurance so I can't really pass comment.

Off topic - I'll be in Tignes as of Monday, what are the conditions like at the moment.

Re:What do people make of this warning! Off piste safety.

Wed, 26 Jan 2011 09:47:02 GMT

In my view if I persuade someone to follow me skiing I am responible - whether this is taking a novice down a red run or hiking into the back woods ....
I think resorts are right to emphasise both the dangers and responsibility of skiing off-piste. The consequences of novice skiers going somewhere innapropriate are huge. Death to themselves, companions, people below them in "safe" areas and the dangers the rescuers put themselves in.
I have skied loads of wonderful places away from lifts and runs - but always with someone I have trusted. I wouldn't even go back and follow the same routes on my own.
Respect the mountains!
Even with all the concrete, metal, cables, vehicles, restaurants and people they are still a wild and potentially dangerous place to be.

What do people make of this warning! Off piste safety.

Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:03:30 GMT

snowcrazy2005 wrote:They have also posted a detailed notice board chart at various off piste entry points giving information on rescue times without full kit, where to get info before going off piste, what kit you should carry and the training needed so that you know how to use it. Remember, longer than 15min and the person is not likely to recover.

These signs are in English as well!!

This sounds like a jump in the right direction! Excellent. I'll be interested to hear if the Paradiski resorts are doing something similar (I know they have the odd blackboard at the bottom of strategic lifts, and a few flags, but this sounds a lot more comprehensive).

snowcrazy2005 wrote:Does this count as local authority advice and therefore if you ignore such advice will you invalidate your insurance should you be involved in an accident off piste and need to claim?

That looks exactly like "local authority advice" to me and I think Insurers would be acting perfectly reasonably to think the same.

OldAndy has pretty much covered everything else I was about to post! 8)

Re:What do people make of this warning! Off piste safety.

Wed, 26 Jan 2011 11:14:03 GMT

Looking at the statement doesn't it suggest the risk is level 2.

The first bit is giving advice that if you don't have a shovel, transponder & probe you should not be venturing off piste even if the risk is low. (isn't the scale 1 low - 5 high?)

Presumably this means the risk is pretty low but not minimal.

Re:What do people make of this warning! Off piste safety.

Wed, 26 Jan 2011 19:00:01 GMT

A very lucky escape.

http://www.kingsurf.co.uk/scuba-and-pete-get-caught-in-a-avalanche-in-the-alps-i24.html

Re:What do people make of this warning! Off piste safety.

Wed, 26 Jan 2011 19:56:59 GMT

Just been over the Facebook and looked at the Signs. Yes, agreed it's Local Authority advice, if we read that, we can evidence it quite easily to an Insurer in the event of a claim. Can we prove that we planned the route on a Topographic map, consulted the Weather Forecast and asked the Piste Patrol about the proposed route?

Re:What do people make of this warning! Off piste safety.

Fri, 28 Jan 2011 19:26:28 GMT

Not gonna wade in to the sensibility of these notices. I do however have a question about liabiity which close to my heart. As someone who is no more at peace with the world than when he is on his own with a snowboard on a big mountain, someone who is a little further progressed than groomer riding and someone who lives in a ski resort supposed to get the best from his days off work? A shovel, transciever and probe are bog all use to a solitary rider.

I had a demo of an ABS system last week and am seriously considering a GBP800 - GBP1000 investment. All well and good, but if my insurance (which says nothing about back country alone) would refuse to pay due to these public notices, what possible justifcation can I make to my girlfriend/parents/daughter for doing so?

Insurance used to be a co-operative, and some still is in some respcets, I recenltly joined the Austrian Alpine Club for mountain rescue which on the face of it have a very sensible policy for getting you off the hill at least.

Seriously though, does insurance cover two well heeled novices off piste with all the right kit, but not an experienced individual with the best protection he can get? I'm not that individual yet, I'd like to be, but the investment in avalanche training, paying guides and getting the safety gear seems frivolous if I can't use it cos my insurance won't pay out.

Sorry, rant over.

Re:What do people make of this warning! Off piste safety.

Fri, 28 Jan 2011 20:56:37 GMT

I am very pleased to see that posting this info and asking these questions have stimulated some very interesting responses. The fact that the French authorities are now looking into the whole issue of safe off piste riding means we all need to take great care out there to look out for each other. If I come across anything else like this that might be of interest I will post it as well. Fun and Safe Riding everyone

Re:What do people make of this warning! Off piste safety.

Tue, 1 Feb 2011 23:11:54 GMT

Here is the reply in full that I have received from Russell Dadson, Director, Snowcard Insurance. I hope you all find his reply as helpful as I have. Basically, if you are insured by them, the notices in Tignes/Val 'd'Isere are considered local authority advice and therefore should be followed.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your email and sorry for the delay, I've been away skiing this past week!

No off piste unfortunately - just sheet ice and no powder in sight in the Trois Vallees!

We do ask clients to follow piste authority advice - in the case of your quote below it would appear to constitute advice which would have to be followed.

Level 2 warnings are a moderate warning - having said this, the way different slopes or snow conditions may affect the local piste authorities view on safety will vary from region to region. If Espace Killy post a warning like that they must have good reason, either that or they have had enough of rescuing ill equipped or inexperienced skiers and are trying to enforce a greater sense of responsibility for off piste activity.

In connection with Henry's Avalanche Talk (an off piste forum) we have tried to clarify what following safety advice means in practice. I think what you have below is a clear example of the sort of advice that shouldn't be ignored. If they recommend transceiver, probe and shovel then they should be carried.

I have heard that Espace Killy operate a list of insurers they will not bill directly and will ask for payment at the time of rescue. Snowcard is not on that list and as far as I understand, it is the budget insurers who exclude off piste cover without guides that have caused the problem. Espace Killy must have reason to behave in they way they are, I am not aware that other ski areas are acting in this way but this season it does seem that the whole issue of off piste safety is being debated a lot more. I know there is a lot of concern that ill equipped and inexperienced skiers and boarders are causing problems not only for rescue authorities but also insurers.

Having insurance for off piste activity is not something that skiers and boarders should take lightly - if they want the cover they must use common sense and have the skill levels and equipment to do it safely. If they don't, I can see many insurers withdrawing from the market and the likes of Snowcard will have to either tighten our rules or charge more. It is a fine balancing act and a topic I keep a close eye on.

Our info page is:

http://www.snowcard.co.uk/activities-ski-board.php

I hope this helps.

Kind regards

Russell Dadson, Director, Snowcard Insurance

Also, Mondial Assistance in a statement provided some time ago to another person and posted on my facebook group confirmed that they would expect skiers to comply with local authority advice (see my facebook group discussions page for the full details).

In brief they wrote: Mondial Assistance: The following applies to all travel Insurance policies that Mondial underwrite in the UK and Republic of Ireland.

General off piste guidance (which we would expect insurance customer to observe) are as follows:

· Do not ski/board alone
· Always ski with a guide/instructor unless you are very familiar with the resort/area
· As a minimum, a shovel, probe and transceiver should be carried
· Check local weather forecasts and avalanche warnings every day
. Do not ignore any warning signs or local advice
· Do not ski if the avalanche warning is 4 or 5

So the recommendations seem to be quite clear. At least from one Underwriter and one Insurance Company. It would be interesting to know how others interpret these replies.

Re:What do people make of this warning! Off piste safety.

Sun, 6 Feb 2011 20:16:24 GMT

For those interested. I have posted the remaining pictures of the Avalanche information boards on display in Tignes, which are now permanent and considered by some Insurance companies as 'local authority advice'. Take a look, well worth a read and they can be enlarged to make it easier to read or download. You will find them all on my facebook group page. Link below. Happy and safe riding everyone