Latest posts for the topic "Piste Grading Inconsistency."

Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Sun, 16 Jan 2011 14:23:15 GMT

I strongly suspect that to the more experienced and seasoned skier this subject has been done to death previously but i thought i would just have my say.

Having just returned from La Plagne i am still a little shocked by the gradient of some of their blue runs.

My daughter (10) can handle what i would consider to be a blue but nothing more as she still hangs on to the snowplough. So most days we set out armed with our piste maps and toured the resort via the blue trials which was great until faced with sudden steep slopes. Of course once committed to a piste there is not much chance of walking back up or even getting a chair down.

For example we can take the Mira piste from the Grand Rochette. It is a blue on the map but i don't believe it should be. My poor little girl had to kick her skis off and slide on her bum to get down. But it is only the first bit that is so steep.

So heres the questions:

1. should runs be graded according to their most difficult part?

2. do resorts deliberately 'mis label' runs to make them appear to cater for all?

3. Can you really trust the grading system?

4. Are issues such as this common place across many resorts.

By the end of the week i generally didn't worry too much about the colours on the map, I went and took a look and made my own mind up but as i said previously....its a bugger to get stuck halfway because you trusted what the resort tell you about a pistes difficulty level.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Sun, 16 Jan 2011 15:41:34 GMT

I am definitely with you on this one! It has totally put me off going to a new resort as I don't trust the grading system until I have done the route personally. As at the moment I have to do easy runs, we are going back to the same resort.

Saying that I have done a hideous red which (like your daughter) I took my skis off and slid down on my backside. I had damaged my hamstrings which put pay to that ski hol! Not cool! But I have also done a black which was ok and much easier than the red. I think a lot has to do with the snow- I hate to say that some snow conditions are easier than others! Also narrow treelined blues, can be very icy and difficult. But they are rated blue. Very interested to see what other people say!

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Sun, 16 Jan 2011 15:44:57 GMT

I didn't recall the blues in La Plagne being unduly difficult - slushy at the end of the day & thus hard work and at times icy in the mornings but not technically demanding.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Sun, 16 Jan 2011 16:00:17 GMT

andymol2 wrote:I didn't recall the blues in La Plagne being unduly difficult - slushy at the end of the day & thus hard work and at times icy in the mornings but not technically demanding.

Andy, on the whole i didn't think that the blues in La Plagne were graded wrong, only that some were or had difficult (not blue) parts.
The one in particular i was talking about is from the Grand Rochette. As you come out of the cable car station you go left, then a short way down you branch off to the left towards plagne centre. That bit is steep for a blue.
When you get to the bottom of that short steep run you merge or split off to other routes so i would prefer to see that section labelled red in its own right.
It wouldn't matter because you can get a chairlift to this intersection.
The only reason i can think of that this route would be listed as a blue is because if it wasn't then the only pistes down from that gondola would be red and reduce visitor numbers.

Edit:

A quick google on this particular run brought up this quote from The Telegraph.

" Warning: the Mira piste from Grande Rochette back towards Plagne Centre is the steepest blue run we have ever encountered - it should without question be red; lower down it turns into an excellent cruise."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/snowandski/france/la-plagne/6763195/La-Plagne-piste-guide.html

So it seems that this question has indeed been raised before.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Sun, 16 Jan 2011 20:00:00 GMT

I am looking at this problem from a wholly different angle. Your daughter is too young to fund her own ski lessons ,yes? Yet she can't cope well with a French blue grade piste, and feels the need to slide down on her butt. As a responsible parent, you don't feel it appropriate to buy her a private lesson or two, which will enable her to descend safely?

Yes, piste grading can seem random and vague, it also differs across countries and regions.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Sun, 16 Jan 2011 20:12:12 GMT

Bandit, i am not sure how i should take that comment. My first reaction was probably to feel a little insulted but i suspect you didn't mean to imply i was an irresponsible parent.

Megan had just finished a three hour private lesson with Oxygene in Plagne Centre costing me 160 euro in order that she should be able to cope with blues. So i take her safety and progress VERY seriously, thank you.

What however she cannot cope with is a blue that suddenly becomes what should probably be a red. An icy red too, leaving us in a position where she felt frightened. At times like this she falls back to the safety of the snowplough, however wrong that may be.
Had i seen that one or two of these runs became as steep as the did i would not have taken her there.

My only downfall, as far as i can see, was not to ski that route alone before taking her there. I was expecting all the blues to be of a similar difficulty as the coding system leads us to believe.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Sun, 16 Jan 2011 20:25:33 GMT

I'm not implying that you are not a responsible parent. It's just that the pistes are not going to change their gradient much. Slopes get widened, flattened, do-stoned, but sooner or later you have to cope with what's there. Did you discuss your daughter's experiences with her instructor, and decide on a solution?

IMHO there is nothing wrong with the humble snowplough. Women generally can plough much better than men, because of the way our bodies are built.

Edit: This British ski teacher in Les Deux Alpes has a good reputation for building skiing confidence in nervous skiers. She only takes private students or small groups at the same standard.

http://www.easiski.com/index.html

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Sun, 16 Jan 2011 20:30:17 GMT

bandit wrote: It's just that the pistes are not going to change their gradient much.

BUT my point is that a few runs in La Plagne DO!!!! Mira, as i said changes dramatically.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Sun, 16 Jan 2011 20:34:25 GMT

Snapzzz wrote:

bandit wrote: It's just that the pistes are not going to change their gradient much.

BUT my point is that a few runs in La Plagne DO!!!! Mira, as i said changes dramatically.

AFAIK grading percentages are averaged, so if a run has a flat bottom section, and a short portion of steeper terrain, then it will be graded Blue not Green.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Sun, 16 Jan 2011 20:37:15 GMT

Snapzzz, for me it's a difficult one. I 100% think they don't grade them wrong on purpose. I also think the Weather, time of day, even time of year have a bearing on how difficult a run can be. For example in Meribel last year we flew done a black run, I actually commented at the time how it was the easiest black I had ever done, however we did this run again late afternoon & it was full of Moguls & Ice. Its a tough one, especially with children. Maybe Blues that get tougher should be classed as Beds :)

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Sun, 16 Jan 2011 20:40:14 GMT

Would she not be better off in ski school - a weeks half day lessons would cost you quite a bit less that the 3 hour private, and she'd experience more of the resort. You could then go over some of the ground she covered in the lesson.

Taking skis off and sliding down on yer bum is one of the worst and most dangerous ways down of a ski who inadvertently has got a little out of their depth.

Far better (and safer) to traverse, sit down, swing the skis around, stand up, traverse and repeat.

That all said, their is a certain amount of politics in piste grading, but equally no resort will want people getting out of their depth. Snow conditions can also play a major part.

Overall, tis a tough one!

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Sun, 16 Jan 2011 23:02:34 GMT

I'm sure resorts look at their market, and bias their grading a little to that market.

As to your daughter's skiing, there are some differences in approaches to teaching skiing these days. Schools that use some form of direct to parallel method, will not teach the wedge at all for speed control. Speed control is achieved through turn shape, and stopping by turning sharply uphill (until able to hockey stop).
This means it is better to spend time skiing easier slopes, with good technique, rather than surviving steeper runs by using a braking wedge, and creating bad habits. Bad habits that mean you will then have to pay for more ski lessons to undo.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Sun, 16 Jan 2011 23:04:01 GMT

Hi Snapzzz,

Having just returned from Saalbach/Hinterglemm I totally agree with you about grading inconsistency.
I also suspect that resorts grade some important interconnecting runs as Blue incorrectly on purpose to attract more visitors.
My wife struggled on many Blue runs there and had to revert to snow plough because of too steep a gradient.
I have skied All runs there and many Red runs were no more difficult/steep as say long 2A/2B Blue run back to resort level at Saalbach.

Hence I will be looking/asking fellow skiers for their recommendations for a resort with long easy blue runs for our future trips.

Regards,

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Mon, 17 Jan 2011 09:28:06 GMT

There's nothing wrong with the snowplough - it still has a use for even very experienced skiers.

Those who saw this weekends downhill will have notice more than one of the racers briefly put in a plough to check their speed.
Side slipping is another option for an inexperienced skiier to get down a steep section without getting off their skis.
If you or someone you are with feels they have to walk (could be equipment failure) make sure they walk down the edge of the piste.

There is no doubt an element of interpretation of what's a green/blue/red/black. Steepness can be mitigated by a wide piste, a piste may be harder because of moguls & narrow sections.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Mon, 17 Jan 2011 09:42:32 GMT

I think the key here is confidence. If your daughter practices her technique on easy slopes, she will then be more confident when things get a bit more tricky. I like the idea of private lessons as they can be catered just for her, whereas group lessons are not. I know a lot of confidence is between the ears. The best skiing I ever did was when the weather was so bad I couldn't see just how steep the slope was and just had to concentrate on the next turn. Normally I think I won't complete the turn and will fall over. I can't and I do!

I wouldn't worry too much on the colour of the piste- it is afterall someone else's opinion.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Mon, 17 Jan 2011 10:34:26 GMT

Thanks for starting this post Snapzz, it's very interesting.

Couple of personal viewpoints...

Bandit you mention that the runs are graded by way of an average. Personally (for what it's worth) I'm not convinced that this is the best method. Bearing in mind that the gradings are supposed to be used by individuals to assess a route which is within their own abilities, any short steep sections could be outside of that ability causing unecessary difficulty and safety concerns. Personally (again) I think perhaps that the steepest section could be considered as the indicator. Or even (and I know it gets complicated now), some indicator of how much of the run is above a certain threshold, so I suppose a sub-grading system. Maybe a run being classed as blue overall with 10% above XX gradient.

For those who support extra lessons to improve skill levels I completely agree from a wider perspective. However, for me the point here is that at any given time someone should be able to make reasonably accurate decisions on their route based on their current skill level, whatever that may be.

Snow conditions - absolutely play a part in difficulty of a run. Although it would be incredibly difficult to take this into account when grading as it's such a big variable. For me it needs to be the responsibility of the individual to assess the temperatures etc that day and the likelihood of pistes changing condition during the day. When in doubt select an easier one unless earlier indications are that you'd feel confident and capable of skiing it under more difficult circumstances. FWIW I believe that the run should be graded as though conditions are good and the piste is in good condition, and only take into account fixed issues e.g. width, gradient etc.

EDIT - I knew there was something else that caught my attention. I can see that some have suggested traversing, side slipping etc for getting past the tough bits. I think these methods definitely have their place however, they are really difficult on the legs to keep going for any length of time. Fatigued muscles lead to a greater risk of falling. Plus there's the mental issues i.e. the loss of confidence associated with someone standing at the top of a slope which freaks them out. In my own experience and from witnessing others, I reckon that this factor reduces a persons skill levels (sometimes considerably) when they are needed the most. Thankfully I've not experienced this for some time, but I do recall that the simplest 'must do's' can be forgotten when feeling overwhelmed. This can lead to a slip, which exacerbates the vicious cycle.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Mon, 17 Jan 2011 11:10:40 GMT

With regard to keeping your speed down and getting down a hairy run as best you can.

I think using as much of the slope as you possibly can could be less tiring and less scary than side stepping.

If you can traverse from one side of the slope to the other bending as low as you can and pressing the top of the boot that's facing down the hill you can slow your speed.
Pressing the top of the boot should hopefully force you slightly uphill, thus slowing you down.

It's worked for me in the past, it isn't pretty I admit, but who cares if it gets you down in one piece.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Mon, 17 Jan 2011 15:01:57 GMT

I am convinced that resorts will almost always aim to have their mix of runs broken down roughly 40% blue, 40% red and 20% black as this gives them the widest appeal to the market (admittedly, the odd one will make a virtue of being particularly easy or difficult in order to appeal to a niche market).

This can mean that at the margin, some runs are graded up or down to meet the ideal profile and can result in some rather difficult blue runs.

St Anton and Lech are great example of this: most of St Anton's blues are really quite difficult and would probably rank as reds anywhere else but this would leave the resort with very little to attract novice skiers or groups with novices. On the other hand, the blacks (in reasonable conditions) are not that difficult at all. By contrast Lech has lots of very easy blues that would probably be graded Green elsewhere but that might make the resort look a little too easy and unattractive to most skiers.

As regards picking runs for kids, this is always a tricky area. One of the great advantages of ski school is that the instructors know within about 30 seconds what the kids can manage, while still pushing them along. I find it difficult to judge what my kids can manage and will tend to err on the conservative side.

Having said that I have several experiences of bringing small kids down runs with steep pitches that were at least one grade above what you might expect on a blue/red piste. My approach is to lead them slowly down with big wide traverses and pick the turning point carefully - any kid that has been through ski school a few times will be well used to following in your tracks (with another adult taking up the rear to deal with any fallers). Few small kids are able to manage a lengthy spell of side slipping. If at all possible, I try to stick to runs that I am familiar with when leading inexperienced kids.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Mon, 17 Jan 2011 15:29:02 GMT

Hi EmmaEvs I wasn't suggesting sideslipping or ploughing for long stretches, more as an alternative to bum sliding through a steep section. I agree it's knackering for long sections

Taking your ski's off is OK in that it says you recognise your own limits (far better than recklessly straight lining out of control) but does little to boost confidence. A bit of side slipping may take you a few metres further down the hill - it's amazing the difference being nearer that little bit nearer to the perceived safety of the end of the steep section makes to an inexperienced, nervous skier.

It takes time to build enough confidence to feel able to put in a series of short radius parallel turns to control your speed on steep sections. They may have the basic technique to be able to do it but don't trust themselves. A novice will often traverse OK but turning means passing through the fall line - just what fear is telling you not to do. Side slipping (into a turn hopefully) can allow you to maintain the feeling of being in control.

It can be worse when you are skiing in a group - when one of the more able skiers stops at the top a steep bit - then the nervous then skier stops too & thinks about the steepness rather than continuing over the hump when they are in a rhythm. It's so much harder when fear sets in & you have to start again.

The grading of slopes seems to be an inexact science at best I've ski'd reds that seem easier than some blues & reds that are harder than some blacks -all in the same resort! What are the crtiteria for deciding on a piste grade? Steepness, width, iciness bumpiness, safe run off areas at the edge of the piste. I guess these are all factors and how we apportion the difficulty to each of these elements. Those who grade the pistes should look upon them as an average skier would. If you have weak legs a smooth steep piste may be easier to you than a less steep mogul field.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Mon, 17 Jan 2011 16:40:38 GMT

I would think that everyone, at some point in their ski career, has been faced with a stretch of piste that is too difficult for them (I find 'overfaced' a good term for this - like a horse at a jump http://horses.about.com/od/horsetraining/a/willinghorse.htm).

It has happened several times to me, and I've tried different methods to get past the bit I'm afraid of.

1. Long 'tacks' or traverses across the slope using a wedge turn so that I'm in the safe snow-plough type position when I'm facing down the slope.

2. Side-slipping over the steep icy patch or whatever it may be.

3. My most successful method - combining the two so I side-slip whilst I'm traversing - in other words I release the edge grip enough so that I travel a considerable distance vertically as well as horizontally.

4. When stuck in a mogul field with moguls about 3 feet high and hard as concrete I found I could sit on the moguls and swing my legs round them - until I got past the bad bit and could ski the easier moguls.

I've never yet had to resort to taking my skis off and walking - but it may happen yet!

And as for piste grading - I've never been to a resort yet with 'perfect' piste grading. Maybe what they should do is design a route around the resort and grade it 1-6 or whatever. I mean, everyone who regularly skis in that resort will know that piste x is subject to moguls in the afternoon after fresh snow, piste y has a steep section in the middle that gets icy, and that draglift C does a sharp bend 1/2 of the way up that throws off all the beginners.

What I used to do is ask people about the pistes before I went on them, preferably ski instructors. One of the nice things about getting pretty good at ski-ing is that I know I can ski down almost any black so I don't have to keep worrying that I'm going to get lost and end up on a black or get stuck on a mogully bit.

Ally

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Mon, 17 Jan 2011 17:24:53 GMT

Many of Val D'Isere's and St Anton's blues would be red elsewhere; many of Cervinia's reds would be blue elsewhere. There's no real consistency across Europe - and I doubt there ever will be.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Mon, 17 Jan 2011 18:43:41 GMT

andymol2 wrote:It can be worse when you are skiing in a group - when one of the more able skiers stops at the top a steep bit - then the nervous then skier stops too & thinks about the steepness rather than continuing over the hump when they are in a rhythm. It's so much harder when fear sets in & you have to start again

I so agree with this. Thinking back to my nightmare hol at the beginning of last year, I'm sure this contributed a lot to knocking my confidence. The group I was with would stop at the top of the next decline, look around, talk, faff with gloves, look at the map etc etc. By the time we set off I'd had far too long to stare down the slope and let the anxiety build up.

Now I still stop at the top of the decline, mainly to quickly scan the section, its condition, any hazards, slower skiers etc. If I can't set off straight away due to traffic I deliberately look back up the hill for the majority of the time, until I'm able to set off. I find it's helped loads.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:46:36 GMT

The pistes here are graded in accordance with Chapter 3, Section 3, Paragraph e of this document http://www.seilbahnen.org/dcs/users/6/Verkehrssicherungspflicht_06_d.pdf which governs the safety of ski runs here in Switzerland, below is a rough translation. I imagine other countries use a similar system.

e) Classification of difficulty

For proper operation, pistes must be classified according to their difficulty. Before starting a run, persons using the run must have the possibility of knowing approximately what demands will be made on them.

The classification of difficulty is based on normal conditions. The only parameter used for the classification is the terrain. The user has to take into account that bad weather and snow conditions can increase the degree of difficulty.

The classification is based on the following values:

Easy slopes = Blue
The longitudinal- and cross fall of blue runs may not exceed 25%, with the exception of short sections in open terrain.

Moderate slopes = Red
The longitudinal and cross fall of red runs may not exceed 40%, with the exception of short sections in open terrain.

Expert slopes = Black
Slopes that exceed the maximum steepness of red runs are defined as black.

Piste maps are only a pictorial representation of the terrain. If you want to accurately determine the steepness of a slope you need a topographic map. The gradient can be calculated using the formula (Rise/Run)*100 = Gradient i.e. (200/730)*100 = 27.4%.

There's nothing wrong with your daughter reverting "back to the safety of the snowplough" it's the best thing to do.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Tue, 18 Jan 2011 07:44:46 GMT

SwingBeep wrote:Easy slopes = Blue
The longitudinal- and cross fall of blue runs may not exceed 25%, with the exception of short sections in open terrain.

Thanks very much SwingBeep, for clearing that up :D

The bit I've highlighted in bold are presumably the bum sliding sections :?: :lol:

Does it say how short one of these 'short sections' has to be?

Ally

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Tue, 18 Jan 2011 09:09:40 GMT

Read this post with some interest as we're heading to Le Plagne on Saturday and our group is a very mixed bag in terms of experience, with a complete beginner right up to a Ski pro. Think whilst the others are picking up their hire gear me and my mate will head out to scout things out to give people an easier introduction while they get their confidence back.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Tue, 18 Jan 2011 09:34:06 GMT

Grizwald wrote:Read this post with some interest as we're heading to Le Plagne on Saturday and our group is a very mixed bag in terms of experience, with a complete beginner right up to a Ski pro. Think whilst the others are picking up their hire gear me and my mate will head out to scout things out to give people an easier introduction while they get their confidence back.

Good idea. I get MrEvs to do this for me :thumbup:

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Tue, 18 Jan 2011 11:27:39 GMT

Dont have my copy to hand but the description of VDI in Where to Ski and Snowboard says something like "the piste grading is too inconsistent" and that one local instructor informed them that "we have to have greens and blues marked to attract all sorts but we dont necessarily actually have any on the mountain"

Apologies if I've misquoted but you get the drift

From personal experience I remember the first time I went to VDI with the wife and she was an absolute beginner so I went off to scope out runs we could do together when she was out of ski school - found some stuff that I thought fine of the top of the Bellevarde but she found the drop from the lift station to the start of the runs very daunting - its not really piste but is relatively steep and very busy of course.

Took two more beginners to the 3 Valleys a few years ago and constructed a circuit from VT, thru Les Men, St Martin, Meribel, Courchevel and back again only on blues and encountered a blue that was most definitely red - luckily they were "in the zone" and found it challenging but not impossible - yet if I'd looked it over in advance I'd probably have had them ride the lift down over that run.

What I'm trying to say is that scoping for yourself is the only way to really judge these things but even then there will be exceptions.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Tue, 18 Jan 2011 12:44:39 GMT

AllyG, yes those are the "bum sliding sections". It would appear that they can be of indeterminate length and steepness. I posted the text in its entirety, the whole document is only 29 pages long.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:32:03 GMT

andyoneil wrote:Dont have my copy to hand but the description of VDI in Where to Ski and Snowboard says something like "the piste grading is too inconsistent" and that one local instructor informed them that "we have to have greens and blues marked to attract all sorts but we dont necessarily actually have any on the mountain"

Santons always gets an interesting response from beginners. Quite a 'character building' blue that.

I find people get far too hung up on colour grading, rather than skiing to the conditions. But getting someone down a blue that's freaked them out challenges your coaching skills.

Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Wed, 19 Jan 2011 10:26:08 GMT

Snapzzz wrote:I strongly suspect that to the more experienced and seasoned skier this subject has been done to death previously but i thought i would just have my say.

Having just returned from La Plagne i am still a little shocked by the gradient of some of their blue runs.

My daughter (10) can handle what i would consider to be a blue but nothing more as she still hangs on to the snowplough. So most days we set out armed with our piste maps and toured the resort via the blue trials which was great until faced with sudden steep slopes. Of course once committed to a piste there is not much chance of walking back up or even getting a chair down.

For example we can take the Mira piste from the Grand Rochette. It is a blue on the map but i don't believe it should be. My poor little girl had to kick her skis off and slide on her bum to get down. But it is only the first bit that is so steep.

So heres the questions:

1. should runs be graded according to their most difficult part?

2. do resorts deliberately 'mis label' runs to make them appear to cater for all?

3. Can you really trust the grading system?

4. Are issues such as this common place across many resorts.

By the end of the week i generally didn't worry too much about the colours on the map, I went and took a look and made my own mind up but as i said previously....its a bugger to get stuck halfway because you trusted what the resort tell you about a pistes difficulty level.

I had experience last week with this same run completely freaked me out, thankfully i chose to go to the right and took the other way round. Never went up there again all week.

Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Wed, 19 Jan 2011 19:35:54 GMT

Jenniewren80 wrote:

I had experience last week with this same run completely freaked me out, thankfully i chose to go to the right and took the other way round. Never went up there again all week.

I wish i had done that, at the time i thought that run on round the back only went to Champagny.

Grizwald, go get your friends eased into it i would take them up the Arpette chair out of Belcotte, all the blues back into Belle plagne are prob the easiest in the area.

Re:Piste Grading Inconsistency.

Wed, 19 Jan 2011 20:03:16 GMT

I would second that, and add that there are 2 runs side by side from Arpette that go down towards Les Coches for about a km to Carroley (both nice wide motorway pistes, both of which are very gentle (one has a 50 metre very short drop at the end) from where you can take a lift back up to Arpette again. These are both great for beginners - you could even take them slightly off piste between the two as they are only 5o metres apart and are only slighty off pist if you know what I mean. (Check your pass covers this area first) You could also continue down Pierres Blanches) (White stones) to the bottom of the Pierres Blanches lift and come up again on the chair lift to Carroley if your pass allows, but DO NOT go down Mont Blanc as although it is a blue, some short sections are very steep, narrow and icy and get very busy.

Check out my video of L'Arpette to Belle Plagne http://www.youtube.com/user/fdflsdjfh8308hfosa#p/u/2/85orRGY3TCg

Dixie