Latest posts for the topic "How do you define skill level?"

How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 21:07:02 GMT

I see lots of posts on the forum about good places for intermediates etc... But how do you define intermediate? When do you stop being a beginner and at what point are you an expert?

I know its a silly question, but I know an awful lot of people who claim to be experts and have trouble getting down a black piste. I can ski pretty much everything on the mountain on-piste, but have a lot to learn in terms of off-piste and would consider myself somewhere between beginner and intermediate.

How do you rate yourself?

Is there an objective way of defining skill level?

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 21:09:05 GMT

Objective? No. Short of something being timed every ski assessment of skill is subjective.

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 21:12:26 GMT

Pablo Escobar wrote:Objective? No. Short of something being timed every ski assessment of skill is subjective.

Timed is only objective in terms of racing!It actually does not say too much in terms skill level unless it is over a technical course and varied course. (in my opinion! ;-))

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 21:14:26 GMT

ir12daveor wrote:

Pablo Escobar wrote:Objective? No. Short of something being timed every ski assessment of skill is subjective.

Timed is only objective in terms of racing!It actually does not say too much in terms skill level unless it is over a technical course and varied course. (in my opinion! ;-))

So to answer your own question, there isn't an objective way of defining 'skill' ;)

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 21:16:48 GMT

Pablo Escobar wrote:

ir12daveor wrote:

Pablo Escobar wrote:Objective? No. Short of something being timed every ski assessment of skill is subjective.

Timed is only objective in terms of racing!It actually does not say too much in terms skill level unless it is over a technical course and varied course. (in my opinion! ;-))

So to answer your own question, there isn't an objective way of defining 'skill' ;)

In that case how do you answer a thread like this one?

http://www.j2ski.com/ski-chat-forum/posts/list/7212.page

BTW, I'm just playing devils advocate here to see what people come up with.

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 21:18:42 GMT

You ski, you fall lots you have just begun, you ski faster and fall lots you have still just begun but have a bit of confidence

You ski faster with confidence and snigger at the beginners falling over... just about intermediate. No sniggering then intermediate!

Ski fast, in control down something steep or anywhere with a big confident smile then you have achieved the next level! if you think you are an Expert.......... ask bode Miller or Didier Cuche lol

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 21:18:50 GMT

Not entirely true Pablo. BASI describe tests such as "Eight continuous linked carved turns on a minimum 25 degree slope", along with other types of test.

Would agree though, that beyond that, races, and speed traps are the only other obvious comparisons.

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 21:20:29 GMT

Nobodys answer is really the same because everyone has a different idea of what an intermediate is and what resort they have visited would the person asking the question. Even if the answers were the same they would perhaps be due to different reasons, no one can really be sure.

I'd hazard a guess at greens-->blues (tending towards greens) being most suitable for people looking for beginner resorts. Blues-->Reds for 'Intermediates' (whatever they are) and reds-->blacks for 'advanced' skiers.

Usually, if someone isn't a beginner, posting a preference for run type would get them a better response. Ie. "likes cruisey motorway blues''.

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 21:22:04 GMT

Dave Mac wrote:Not entirely true Pablo. BASI describe tests such as "Eight continuous linked carved turns on a minimum 25 degree slope", along with other types of test.

Dave Mac, it is still down to an examiner to decide where 8 separate turns become linked, how long of a 'pause' between turns can still constitute a linked turn. They might try to define it but it will always be subjective.

Out of interest, what standard is that for?

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 21:27:05 GMT

I regard advanced or expert skiers as those who have been doing it for years and who are capable of skiing anything comfortably.
Intermediates encompasses a much broader range.
Ellis Brigham suggest intermediates are stronger than novices (who can tackle greens and blues) and tackle reds, easy blacks and trying out softer snow whilst still working on technique. I'd say that probably covers most people from the UK who take regular ski holidays, and probably a high proportion who post on here regularly.

Snow & Rock have a table with numbers:
Recreational
1 - first time skier or you have skied before but cannot yet snow plough
2 - skied at least once before, ski at a slow pace, stop using a snow plough and trying changes in direction
3 - can ski linked snowplough turns, easy blues remain a challenge
4 - linked snowplough turns and skiing parallel sometimes, starting to explore but mainly groomed green and blue slopes
Advanced
5 - exploring more in parallel stance, may use snowplough in trouble. Like to travel faster and enjoy skiing a series of turns. Prefer not to ski reds or moguls just yet
6 - much more confident skier, starting to feel the skis carve at times, comfortable on reds and trying the odd black and some easy moguls
7 - strong parallel turns in various conditions with the ability to make short and long radius turns, enjoying speed and carving turns. Enjoying trying blacks and moguls but want to progress more, and learn about off piste skiing.
Expert
8 - confident skier and have skied many different resorts, more aware of equipment and what it can do for you. Looking to ski either high speed carving turns, develop all mountain freeride technique, or explore doing tricks in the park.
9 - have the ability to ski on and off piste and probably looking to own your own all mountain skis to take you anywhere because you are confident and comfortable doing so.
10 - top level skier who can deal with any terrain and conditions, possibly an instructor or professional, or back country powder hound.

Interesting because I reckon in my first week skiing when I had lessons, I went from 1 to 4, just.
Using the above numbering system, I would have put myself at 7-8 although I have just bought skis rated as 9, but I would certainly not rate myself as expert!!!!

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 21:57:47 GMT

For me, you can only do this at the coarsest of levels. I go with something like :-

Beginner - First day onwards, falling lots, Green runs only and having lots of trouble with lifts!

Lower Intermediate - anyone off the Greens and starting to get around the mountain a bit. Maybe still gets spat out by the occasional chair-lift but getting more confident and really starting to enjoy it.

Intermediate - happy on Blues and easy Reds. Will try tougher runs including the occasional Black. Loves mileage. Lifts no problem!

Strong Intermediate - skis Reds for fun and Blacks for the challenge. Occasional sorties off the marked runs.

Advanced - for me an Advanced skier is someone starting to ski "technically"; i.e. really using the ski. Knows when and what they should be trying to do but perhaps not quite there in all conditions.

Expert - skis anything in any conditions, on or off-piste, with a high level of technical ability.

But there's no right answer. There's just so much to learn and so many different disciplines... and many people are "Experts" at say piste skiing but hopeless when it gets fluffy. And I've followed some very scruffy (style-wise) dudes on twin-tips who turned out to be stunning in the park - what use is a perfect carve technique when you're doing an inverted grab 10 feet up??? 8)

Intermediate probably has the greatest range but oddly it's also perhaps the most consistent term - where an Intermediate is simply someone who's out of the nursery slopes and away up the mountain.

Maybe.

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 22:00:07 GMT

Scruffy (style-wise) is cool 8)
Its all about individuality )

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 22:14:13 GMT

I reckon most of us can relate to the Snow and Rock table - for me

Week 1 - 1 to 3

Week 2 - 4 to 5

Week 3 - 5 to 6

Week 4 - 6

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 22:22:06 GMT

Just to add to the confusion;

In February, in Val Thorens, I had ESF group lessons morning and afternoon with two different teachers but at the same level - Upper Intermediate.

The morning lessons were really great with a very well balanced group of people and we got on to carving reds, beginning off piste, very small jumps, blacks etc. and at the end of it the instructor said I should move on to the advanced ESF group next holiday.

The afternoon group was very badly balanced, with lower intermediate children mixed in with the adult upper intermediate group and ski-ing was very difficult. However, we still did off piste, over small jumps, blacks etc. and at the end of it the instructor said I should stay in the Upper Intermediate group, but that I was a strong intermediate.

So, even instructors from the same ski school have a different grading standard.

As far as lessons go, it doesn't really matter anyway, because in all the lessons I've been in the instructors always grade you on the first day and then move you during the week if you progress faster/slower than everyone else so that they can try and keep everyone in the group at roughly the same level.

On Tony's list I would grade myself as a 6/7 and I would call myself a strong intermediate.

I think you'd have to be pretty confident in your own abilities to call yourself advanced, and I should think that very few British holiday skiers get to expert standard.

Ally

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 22:47:24 GMT

People at 6/7 level shouldn't be falling over should they? And I dont mean that to be rude, but you previously mentioned you fall over quote a bit.

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 23:05:03 GMT

Tony,
The falling over was just a joke. I thought you knew that?

Actually, I fall over a lot less than anyone else in my group. I don't think I fell over at all during my last holiday in Val Thorens, in either of my two group lessons. And yes, I did fall over at Tignes, but as I said, so did a member of one of those national ski teams ski-ing down the same patch of ice as us.

Some of the other people in my group in VT did some really dramatic crashes, though. One of them I remember was because the instructor skied down a fairly steep bit ahead of us doing lots of small turns and then made us ski down one by one, seeing how many turns we could make. I started off pretty well, but I was a bit over-ambitious and I nearly spun out of control, got myself back under control and finished okay. But another person totally lost it and catapulted forwards through the air to pretty much end up flat on their face at the instructor's feet.

And the last day, we were carving pretty fast down a red, and I was right behind the instructor, really enjoying it, and one poor person went 'smash' at top speed and nearly knocked themselves out.

A good lesson, I feel, is one that pushes you to your limits, without frightening you or endangering your safety, so you get the exhiliration, but not the fear. And naturally, ski-ing at that relative level of difficulty, sometimes people do fall over.

Ally

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 23:07:59 GMT

I think I have a fairly decent spill maybe once a week. If you aren't falling you are definitely not trying hard enough :twisted:

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 23:10:40 GMT

I fall probably once a day on average, but never on a piste, only in the park or off piste!

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 23:19:51 GMT

I only fall when I'm under a busy lift.....

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 23:23:30 GMT

Admin wrote:

But there's no right answer. There's just so much to learn and so many different disciplines... and many people are "Experts" at say piste skiing but hopeless when it gets fluffy. And I've followed some very scruffy (style-wise) dudes on twin-tips who turned out to be stunning in the park - what use is a perfect carve technique when you're doing an inverted grab 10 feet up??? 8)

Exactly. Those US team people who were falling over in powder, can hardly be described as intermediates (who compete on the WC circuit). It would appear that many people think that if you can't ski powder, you can't ski. It would be like saying Lance Armstrong is not an expert cyclist, if he couldn't do a two foot bunny hop on a mountain bike. So as the Snow and Rock guide intimates in #8, there is some degree of specialisation at advancing levels. For that reason, we now have specialised skis.

Trencher

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 23:27:45 GMT

Pablo Escobar wrote:I think I have a fairly decent spill maybe once a week. If you aren't falling you are definitely not trying hard enough :twisted:

and that's almost a more important reason to be fit, than the actual skiing. Confidence that you'll survive a good spill is a big help in improving.

Trencher

Re:How do you define skill level?

Wed, 2 Dec 2009 23:32:07 GMT

Transferable skills are a good thing: www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnRfMG9GF98

Daron Rahlves appears to have switched discipline and has scored himself some reel time in the new MSP flick.

Re:How do you define skill level?

Thu, 3 Dec 2009 07:57:05 GMT

Pablo Escobar wrote:Daron Rahlves appears to have switched discipline and has scored himself some reel time in the new MSP flick.

He has an impressive section in Dynasty too. Big mountain lines at World Cup speeds :shock: Great stuff.

Re:How do you define skill level?

Thu, 3 Dec 2009 08:04:15 GMT

As for specialisation at higher levels, I'm not wholly convinced. I do know that the French ski clubs, push their children onto the off piste, on GS skis. I have seen it, and I know one of the parents of a child who came up through the French system to become a member of the GB Childrens Alpine Team. The kids will ski anything (on anything).

Re:How do you define skill level?

Thu, 3 Dec 2009 09:34:54 GMT

Pablo Escobar wrote:I think I have a fairly decent spill maybe once a week. If you aren't falling you are definitely not trying hard enough :twisted:

as i was reading through this thread i was about to type the exact same thing!

Re:How do you define skill level?

Thu, 3 Dec 2009 09:41:17 GMT

Rossyhead,
I'm very glad to hear it. It's nice to know I'm not the only person who still falls over :lol:

Ally

Re:How do you define skill level?

Thu, 3 Dec 2009 09:44:05 GMT

absolutely-whether it is a day in deep powder or a bit tired on the run home every has a tumble everyone now and again!

in kitzbuhel with my pupils last year me and a couple of teachers decided to spray a them as they were all sitting in a nice big group but as i put the pressure on the edges (and created a tidal wave of snow over them) my binding released and i face planted RIGHT infront of them all!

was rather amusing!

Re:How do you define skill level?

Thu, 3 Dec 2009 10:11:35 GMT

My ability, intermediate recreational skier.

Finn

Re:How do you define skill level?

Thu, 3 Dec 2009 10:17:05 GMT

I usually have one or two falls in a week, but I know I don't push myself hard enough. I'm quite happy with my level now...I don't know what it is, but I'm not a speed freak and I have no desire to to go bombing down sheer rock faces.

Re:How do you define skill level?

Thu, 3 Dec 2009 20:33:36 GMT

DMSS magazine grades:-

1 (green) ski virgin
2 (blue) 2nd week and counting
3 (blue) hooked - done a few weeks now and loving those greens and blues
4 (blue) master of the parallels on blue runs, staring to hit the reds
5 (blue/red) cruising the reds, still losing it on the blacks
6 (blue/ red) coping with blacks, not so keen on bumps and off piste
7 (red/black) rockin' on groomed blacks and easy bumps, still rollin' down steep bumps and off piste
8 (red/black) kicking ass except in poor snow, the steepest bumps and deep pow
9 (black) smokin' - ain't nothing that fazes you
10 (black) top gun - pro racer, freeskier or instructor

they apply these levels to the skis they're advertising.

I'm aiming to be a 5 by the end of obergurgl, maybe even hoping for 6 by the end of the season.

Re:How do you define skill level?

Thu, 3 Dec 2009 20:35:53 GMT

Hmmmm now I always think I'm a rubbish skier, but according to that I'm a 5-6.

I might have a glass of wine to celebrate.

Re:How do you define skill level?

Thu, 3 Dec 2009 21:01:38 GMT

You should not feel the need to pigeon hole yourself "can you get down most slopes" means your'e an ok skier, can you do with a bit of style makes you a better skier 8)

Re:How do you define skill level?

Thu, 3 Dec 2009 21:21:48 GMT

I always thought of myself as a beginner however having skied in Mayrhofen last year and coping fairly well (despite the fitness levels)with the majority of red runs a friend of mine, a "proper skier" reckoned I was more an intermediate than beginner. Still always unsure how to catergorise myself though when I get asked!

Re:How do you define skill level?

Thu, 3 Dec 2009 21:54:10 GMT

easy days skiing and 1 or 2 apres ski beers and bed = beginner

long days skiing and 4 or 5 apres ski beers with wine at dinner = intermediate

60km+ 8 or 9 apres ski beers, dinner with wine, nightclub and return to hotel at 4am in boots and gear = expert

anything over expert = plain silly

)

It's a subjective question with the only option to answer being subjective, unless you define parameters for any given scale and agree on them then trying to quantify across a large population is about as meaningful as jam filled traffic cones.

However I am listening to A Flock of Seagulls whilst typing this so what on earth would I know.

Re:How do you define skill level?

Thu, 3 Dec 2009 22:04:02 GMT

tino_11 wrote:easy days skiing and 1 or 2 apres ski beers and bed = beginner

long days skiing and 4 or 5 apres ski beers with wine at dinner = intermediate

60km+ 8 or 9 apres ski beers, dinner with wine, nightclub and return to hotel at 4am in boots and gear = expert

anything over expert = plain silly

)

It's a subjective question with the only option to answer being subjective, unless you define parameters for any given scale and agree on them then trying to quantify across a large population is about as meaningful as jam filled traffic cones.

However I am listening to A Flock of Seagulls whilst typing this so what on earth would I know.

Bottle of Red again Tino? :lol:

Re:How do you define skill level?

Thu, 3 Dec 2009 22:10:35 GMT

bandit wrote:

tino_11 wrote:easy days skiing and 1 or 2 apres ski beers and bed = beginner

long days skiing and 4 or 5 apres ski beers with wine at dinner = intermediate

60km+ 8 or 9 apres ski beers, dinner with wine, nightclub and return to hotel at 4am in boots and gear = expert

anything over expert = plain silly

)

It's a subjective question with the only option to answer being subjective, unless you define parameters for any given scale and agree on them then trying to quantify across a large population is about as meaningful as jam filled traffic cones.

However I am listening to A Flock of Seagulls whilst typing this so what on earth would I know.

Bottle of Red again Tino? :lol:

Dinner with work so only two glasses :( Might nip out for lasties though.

Re:How do you define skill level?

Thu, 3 Dec 2009 22:44:09 GMT

Ian Wickham wrote:You should not feel the need to pigeon hole yourself "can you get down most slopes" means your'e an ok skier, can you do with a bit of style makes you a better skier 8)

hear hear!
:-)

Re:How do you define skill level?

Thu, 3 Dec 2009 23:44:48 GMT

tino_11 wrote:

However I am listening to A Flock of Seagulls whilst typing this so what on earth would I know.

As much as me probably, as I really liked them. I am seeing your musical taste now. I know we discussed Depeche Mode whilst in St Anton, and I note you were recently listening to White Lies. Can I suggest you have a go at White Rose Movement and Shiny Toy Guns?

I thank you.

Re:How do you define skill level?

Fri, 4 Dec 2009 00:02:32 GMT

Tony_H wrote:

tino_11 wrote:

However I am listening to A Flock of Seagulls whilst typing this so what on earth would I know.

As much as me probably, as I really liked them. I am seeing your musical taste now. I know we discussed Depeche Mode whilst in St Anton, and I note you were recently listening to White Lies. Can I suggest you have a go at White Rose Movement and Shiny Toy Guns?

I thank you.

I'll get some tapes for my Walkman )

Re:How do you define skill level?

Fri, 4 Dec 2009 10:04:01 GMT

I was looking at Igluski.com just now, and I noticed that the way they grade the number of pistes in a resort is - beginner, intermediate and advanced. Presumably these correlate to green and blue, red, and black.

Ally

Re:How do you define skill level?

Sun, 6 Dec 2009 16:01:09 GMT

tino_11 wrote:

Tony_H wrote:

tino_11 wrote:

However I am listening to A Flock of Seagulls whilst typing this so what on earth would I know.

As much as me probably, as I really liked them. I am seeing your musical taste now. I know we discussed Depeche Mode whilst in St Anton, and I note you were recently listening to White Lies. Can I suggest you have a go at White Rose Movement and Shiny Toy Guns?

I thank you.

I'll get some tapes for my Walkman )

Have you had a listen yet??