Latest posts for the topic "Winter driving"

Winter driving

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:18:36 GMT

I found this rather good link :

http://www.rospa.com/drivertraining/winter/index.htm

Some good advice there I think. In addition to the stuff they suggest I also have :

old shell jacket and trousers for putting chains on or anything that get me out of the car.

a couple of pairs of gloves.

a soft brush, it's the quickest way to get snow of the car.

Driving around today is really hard, the roads into our village are not treated and the one I was using this morning isn't cleared either. To echo what they say at ROSPA, getting into the right gear is crucial, once you're on an awkward slope changing gear is pretty hard as you can momentarily lose traction especially trying to change down. I find the rev' limiter in second is high enough I can drive in second on most any slope.

Another tip is not to panic too much if you do skid a bit, it's going to happen and you want to avoid stepping of the gas when it does, if anything a bit more gas and keeping power to wheels can rescue you. Within reason of course, don't accelerate off a cliff. Also, slowing down going up a hill is a bad idea, slow enough and you'll go backwards, a lot of the time momentum is your friend :D

No country on mainland Europe requires you to have chains or winter tyres but individual routes can be closed to people without them, that's the same in all countries (including the UK). Winter tires are fantastic and worth having but you always need chains, winter tyres won't get you quite everywhere. You can gamble on not having them but you may find you miss your flight home :)

Fitting chains isn't so awkward, if you've got your own then a bit of practise helps. You absolutely have to be able to fit chains where you find yourself, once the going gets difficult you may not be able to turn around and it is an offence to drive with chains on tarmac. Similarly, if you come to leave your accommodation at the top of the mountain then that's where you are and that's where you have to fit the chains.

Also, within reason, have some concern for the car behind, if they're fully equipped and not having problems it's polite to let them past, in fact it's a requirement in some places.

Or do what I'm about to do fetching Mrs Ise from the station and take a Subaru Imprezza with winter tyres on it :D

Re:Winter driving

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:49:47 GMT

Thanks for the link. Good advice there.

On the point of chains...what are the roads around Chamonix likely to be like end of January? I'd expect the roads around a town to be salted, or whetever, but having never been to the alps, I'm not 100% sure. Am I likely to need chains in that area?

Re:Winter driving

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:53:04 GMT

Hoop wrote:Thanks for the link. Good advice there.

On the point of chains...what are the roads around Chamonix likely to be like end of January? I'd expect the roads around a town to be salted, or whetever, but having never been to the alps, I'm not 100% sure. Am I likely to need chains in that area?

Its motor-way all the way so should be no problem 8)

Re:Winter driving

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:55:54 GMT

Happy days :mrgreen:

Re:Winter driving

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:27:01 GMT

Hoop wrote:Thanks for the link. Good advice there.

On the point of chains...what are the roads around Chamonix likely to be like end of January? I'd expect the roads around a town to be salted, or whetever, but having never been to the alps, I'm not 100% sure. Am I likely to need chains in that area?

It's a major route into Chamonix so it's cleared. The side roads aren't treated, salt into the water course would kill the local flora and fauna so it's used sparingly. If you're planning to drive around you'll need chains really as a precaution.

Re:Winter driving

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:00:20 GMT

It's interesting how many types of snow can be on the road. It varies so much with the temperature and humidity. Some snow is like driving on ice and other snow is quite grippy. I find the best test is when I've slowed down for some reason, I'll spin the wheels a little as I accelerate to get a feel for it. When the going is really bad and slow, the vehicle stability system can cause problems with sudden loss of power to the wheels, especially when in four wheel drive. Then it gets turned off.

Trencher

Re:Winter driving

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:08:37 GMT

Trencher wrote:It's interesting how many types of snow can be on the road. It varies so much with the temperature and humidity. Some snow is like driving on ice and other snow is quite grippy. I find the best test is when I've slowed down for some reason, I'll spin the wheels a little as I accelerate to get a feel for it. When the going is really bad and slow, the vehicle stability system can cause problems with sudden loss of power to the wheels, especially when in four wheel drive. Then it gets turned off.

Trencher

that's the trouble with some traction control sometimes, on 2WD it often works by braking the wheels to stop them spinning which doesn't pan out with snow sometimes. with 4WD I rely on momentum to carry me forward until traction is regained, that seems to work better.

Re:Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 06:16:43 GMT

Cat litter, cat litter cat litter. Best stuff, if your out and um, stuck.
Where I'm from you can't use chains and the ding dong road crews don't salt. It's a real.....joy

A tank top, aka wife beater works for tread in a snap. It also works in mud which is were I needed it guess beyond a certain point the sides of the Alps don't get plowed :-o

Not panicking is 1# advice

Re:Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:54:03 GMT

Does anyone know if the road from Worgl to Niederau is treated and cleared regularly?

Re:Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:05:49 GMT

Tony, snowploughs keep the surfaces clear of any depth. They scatter stones on the road in the village, these are collected in gully traps and re-used. Pavements are gritted.

Main roads kept clear. But if there is a dump on when you are driving, it may be a bit slidy.

It's only a 100ft drop over the edge of the road anyway. :lol:

Re:Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:07:09 GMT

Sorry Tony, that should read a 1000ft drop. :evil:

Re:Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:11:19 GMT

Dave Mac wrote:Sorry Tony, that should read a 1000ft drop. :evil:

Nice.

Re:Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:27:13 GMT

Dave Mac wrote:Tony, snowploughs keep the surfaces clear of any depth. They scatter stones on the road in the village, these are collected in gully traps and re-used. Pavements are gritted.

I think that's about normal most places. Motorways tend to salt but i think the existing run off traps stop most of that getting into the water course.

Re:Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:59:56 GMT

The best tips I have from experience are below:

Preparation:
1-Try to avoid travelling at all if the conditions are really bad.
2-Keep your phone charged and know where reception is available.
3-Brush the snow off your tail lights!!! (To make sure other people can see you.)
4-Brush the snow off the rest of your car. A common courtesy to other drivers and if you break, the snow from the roof will not end up obscuring your windscreen.
5-Pack a ditch kit should you have to wait for help. Include warm clothes, chocolate and plenty of water (don't leave it in the car to freeze)

Driving:
6-Take it slow and steady, give yourself plenty of time to stop, especially for traffic lights.
7-Don't panic if you skid. Almost anything you do will make it worse. If anything, try to steer rather than break or accelerate. (As pointed out previously)
8-When turning off of a busy road across the flow (i.e. right in UK), avoid having your wheels turned whilst you wait for a gap in the oncoming traffic. Many times people have been killed because they were pushed into the oncoming traffic when they were waiting with wheels already turned and a car from behind, skidded into them or did not see them due to point #3.
9-With ref to point 6 - the area leading up to traffic lights can be especially slippery when there is a lot of compacted snow on the road. This is due to the waiting cars exhaust's melting the snow into very slippery ice.
10-Remember a 4x4 will help with traction but will not stop any faster than a 2WD.

Re:Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:56:49 GMT

I was pulled over by the police in Austria, because I had neglected to clear the snow off the roof of the minibus.

Re:Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:31:02 GMT

steverandomno wrote:
1-Try to avoid travelling at all if the conditions are really bad.

All well and good when you havent got a flight to catch, or a hotel to get to.....!!!!

Re:Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:23:56 GMT

Tony,

Plan B is to head for Worgl rail station, park up, throw your stuff into a taxi, and 15 Euros to Niederau. Get your car the following night.

Sorted.

Re:Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:47:02 GMT

Tony_H wrote:

steverandomno wrote:
1-Try to avoid travelling at all if the conditions are really bad.

All well and good when you havent got a flight to catch, or a hotel to get to.....!!!!

True.

This is following on from another post regarding advice for a ski road trip in Canada. The point being that if you can leave your accomodation flexible then it can work out well for both driving and skiing, when the best days for skiing are generaly the worst days for driving.

Re:Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:48:20 GMT

Tony do not think you will have any trouble on that rd in 05/06
there was heaps of snow and had no probllems in a rear wheel drive, which did have winter tyres, even used the top road over to Hopgarten Soll after a snowfall with no problems.
Goff

Re:Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:41:25 GMT

You will have no problems in Niederau, all roads will be heated, the locals will put on your snow cans for you and you can't get lost as the road is lined with peroni. :lol:

Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:24:01 GMT

ise wrote:No country on mainland Europe requires you to have chains or winter tyres

As far as winter tyres, errr, Austria ;) 01/11/08 - 15/04/09 ...

Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:40:39 GMT

Jan I Stenmark wrote:

ise wrote:No country on mainland Europe requires you to have chains or winter tyres

As far as winter tyres, errr, Austria ;) 01/11/08 - 15/04/09 ...

err, no they don't ;)

Re:Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:52:48 GMT

Don't assume that just because you're on a motorway route you won't need chains. I've been on the motorway from Lyon to the Tarantaise when chains have been needed!

Like all good scouts, being prepared and expecting the unexpected are important!

Re:Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 21:02:22 GMT

Dorset Boy wrote:Don't assume that just because you're on a motorway route you won't need chains. I've been on the motorway from Lyon to the Tarantaise when chains have been needed!

Like all good scouts, being prepared and expecting the unexpected are important!

true, it's never quite happened to me but we've been close a couple of times.

Re:Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 21:11:15 GMT

I am driving up to Les Coches below La Plagne on Boxing Day. I see that it is mostly major roads all the way but then the route from Amie is very windy.
I have snow chains but what is the road like in general?
Does it often shut becuase of the poor weather?
Any advice would be gratefully accepted.

Re:Winter driving

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 21:17:13 GMT

Dougiee wrote:I am driving up to Les Coches below La Plagne on Boxing Day. I see that it is mostly major roads all the way but then the route from Amie is very windy.
I have snow chains but what is the road like in general?
Does it often shut becuase of the poor weather?
Any advice would be gratefully accepted.

They're going to be working hard to keep the route open and I don't think it's particularly infamous for getting closed. You might need chains but for it too close entirely would be pretty exceptional. That said, it's happened a couple of times in the last few years that road up to the Tarentaise have been closed. Nothing too much to worry about I'd say though. The problems often start once you're in the station trying to find your accommodation and parking though. Worth getting contact numbers for where you're staying probably although that's pretty obvious I guess )

Re:Winter driving

Fri, 19 Dec 2008 09:55:33 GMT

Ian Wickham wrote:You will have no problems in Niederau, all roads will be heated, the locals will put on your snow cans for you and you can't get lost as the road is lined with peroni. :lol:

Dont like the sound of that at all.

Winter driving

Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:05:20 GMT

Any one know what the roads are like around la plagne at end of january?

Winter driving

Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:45:32 GMT

iannikkei wrote:Any one know what the roads are like around la plagne at end of january?

no :lol:

Re:Winter driving

Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:38:14 GMT

Tony_H wrote:

Ian Wickham wrote:You will have no problems in Niederau, all roads will be heated, the locals will put on your snow cans for you and you can't get lost as the road is lined with peroni. :lol:

Dont like the sound of that at all.

Tony, I'm shocked, you've changed your "Avatar"

Winter driving

Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:19:41 GMT

ise wrote:

Jan I Stenmark wrote:

ise wrote:No country on mainland Europe requires you to have chains or winter tyres

As far as winter tyres, errr, Austria ;) 01/11/08 - 15/04/09 ...

err, no they don't ;)

Unless the FO have got it all wrong, I submit the following to support my comment:

Road Travel in Winter (1 November-15 April)

New legislation, which comes into force on 1 January 2008, demands that all vehicles with up to 3.5 tonnes laden weight use winter tyres on all wheels in wintry road conditions (snow, slush, ice). Snow chains on the driving wheels will only be allowed as an alternative where the road is fully covered by snow and/or ice and the road surface will not be damaged by the chains. Chains or summer tyres will not be allowed for slush conditions. Heavy fines or temporary loss of vehicle may be imposed on those who ignore this legislation.

The full statement can be read here:

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travelling-and-living-overseas/travel-advice-by-country/europe/austria

The same content can be seen here:

http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=51959

and whilst I admit that this only anecdotal evidence, we received a letter in October informing us that Winter Tyres were compulsory from 1st November. For several days the police were stopping every car and inspecting tyres.

I hope this resolves any misunderstanding.

Jan

Winter driving

Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:58:45 GMT

Jan I Stenmark wrote:

I hope this resolves any misunderstanding.

Jan

absolutely, apology accepted, that's very gracious of you.

seasons greeting!

Re:Winter driving

Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:13:26 GMT

Pointlessly rude and worse, actively confusing to those trying to distinguish fact from ill-informed ramblings.

Re:Winter driving

Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:24:34 GMT

What I actually wrote was :

No country on mainland Europe requires you to have chains or winter tyres but individual routes can be closed to people without them, that's the same in all countries (including the UK).

The law, straight from the Austrian government is this :

Compulsory Winter Tyres
Trucks with a permissible maximum weight exceeding 3.5 t and busses
Trucks with a permissible maximum weight exceeding 3.5 t and related motor vehicles may be operated only between 1 November and 15 April if winter tyres are installed on the wheels of at least one drive axle.

Busses and related motor vehicles may be operated only between 1 November and 15 March, if winter tyres are installed on the wheels of at least one drive axle.

Please Note: Winter tyres are tyres designed for use as snow and mud tyres with a certain profile depth, i.e., tyres marked "M + S". All-season tyres are also considered winter tyres if they have the "M + S" mark.

Vehicles exempt from this requirement are:

public security service vehicles, army vehicles, and fire trucks on which it is impossible or not useful to install winter tyres due to the vehicle's design or due to its predominant purpose of use,
vehicles equipped with "special" tyres due to the vehicle's design or due to its predominant purpose of use,
vehicles used for tests or the transfer of vehicles.
Passenger cars and trucks with a permissible maximum weight of up to 3.5 t
Passenger cars and trucks with a permissible maximum weight of up to 3.5 t may be operated only between 1 November and 15 April in winter conditions such as snow, slush or ice if winter tyres have been installed on all wheels.

As an alternative to winter tyres, snow chains may be used on at least two driving wheels, however, these may only be used in case the road is covered by a complete or scarcely broken snow cover or sheet of ice.

Please Note: Winter tyres are tyres with a certain depth of profile used as snow and mud tyres or as snow, mud and ice tyres, i.e., tyres marked "M/E" or "M/S/E".

Compulsory Snow Chains
Between 1 November and 15 April drivers of trucks with a permissible weight exceeding 3.5 t and bus drivers as well as drivers of related vehicles are required to carry suitable snow chains for at least two driving wheels onboard.

Snow chains may only be used if necessary and only if they are mounted in such a way that they do not damage the road surface.

Vehicles exempt from this regulation are:

vehicles on which it is impossible to mount snow chains for design reasons,
vehicles that can only be used on snow-free roads due to their design,
vehicles belonging to Class M2 and M3 (busses) used for public transportation.

so there's no requirement to have winter tires at all for general usage, if you're on a snow covered road you're required to have snow chains or winter tires which I think everyone was fully aware of.

nevertheless seasons greetings !

Re:Winter driving

Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:46:31 GMT

So if it starts snowing and you don't have winter tires, you had better pull over and hope that the road gets completely covered so you can put the snow chains on. Or risk a fine. Did I read that correctly

Trencher

Re:Winter driving

Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:04:06 GMT

Trencher wrote:So if it starts snowing and you don't have winter tires, you had better pull over and hope that the road gets completely covered so you can put the snow chains on. Or risk a fine. Did I read that correctly

Trencher

yes that's about right, it's fair enough of course, they don't want to make it illegal for people from the UK or Holland etc etc to enter the country but they want people to be equipped. In practice, if it's snowing and the road is partly or completely snow covered then you'll be fine with chains on. Your real worry is no chains, no winter tyres and a snow covered road, that's where you'll be in bother.

For the people going in holiday the message is pretty simple, you must have either winter tires or chains if there's snow on the road as you'd expect. Being informed you just take your own decision, you might choose not to be equipped at all but you're not going to be allowed on some routes.

My own advice, after 12 years living in alpine countries and a few years before that driving in the alps, is that you really need chains and winter tires only if you can. If you're planning to drive around while you're in the Alps and try different stations then I'd advise winter tires if you can get them on the hire car as it's easier. But I see people visiting around here managing perfectly well with ordinary tires and chains. Again, from experience with 4WD drive and winter tires I do need chains from time to time so to me that's the most important thing.

It's up to the individual, you take your own choice based on what you know.

Re:Winter driving

Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:21:14 GMT

There is a bit of semantics here.

The bottom line is, 1 November-15 April:

If I do a car hire, do not have winter tyres, and the journey does not encounter "snow, slush,ice", then I am legal.

If, on the other hand, during the hire period, at a time when I am driving, and encounter "snow, slush,ice", then I am illegal. As a result, heavy fines or temporary loss of vehicle may be imposed for breaches of this legislation.

Do I feel lucky?

So this really does mean getting chains hired. Can be done at the car hire desk. What I do anyway, though not normally in March. Also important is understanding the road snow coverage aspect.

Re:Winter driving

Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:00:33 GMT

I appreciate your intent Dave but it's not a question of semantics, what I posted was quite clear because I made careful that it was both clear and accurate. My intention was provide some accurate information and some amount of personal experience from the many years I've lived here. That was derailed by being misquoted and wilfully misunderstood and then abused. Obviously I well understand the exact legal position in Austria, in fact I posted the piece from the Austrian government on this forum earlier this week.

Re:Winter driving

Sat, 20 Dec 2008 20:16:19 GMT

Er, Dave Mac and Jan,
Given that it's bucketing down in Niederau, and Blodyn abnd I are starting our journey, Thelma-and-Louise-style, early on Saturday morning, hoping to get to Worgle by, er, lunchtime, do you think we should invest in some chains?
My plan is to telephone big Phil or Eric and ask them to come down to Worgl with chains to fit Blod's car, if the Worgle/Niederau road is iffy. L.

Re:Winter driving

Sat, 20 Dec 2008 22:28:35 GMT

I guess with global warming this whole subject matter will be a thing of the past soon :-)

Re:Winter driving

Sat, 20 Dec 2008 23:11:23 GMT

Ian Wickham wrote:I guess with global warming this whole subject matter will be a thing of the past soon :-)

Who knows. If the Gulf stream shifts, you may be using chains to drive into London in the winter :lol: So many tipping points may be reached that the world could potentially look very different.

Do large cities have snow emergencies in Europe ? Here after a snow storm, Cities will announce a snow emergency. This means you can only park on the even number side of the street one night and the odd number side the next night. This allows them to plow the whole street over two nights. It's common for hundreds of cars to be towed away.

In the suburbs, there is no street parking at night during the winter to allow for snow plowing.

Fortunately the snow plowing is very efficient. It's quite impressive to see four or five plows in formation on the freeway traveling at sixty mph. This trailer plow is a new idea to get by with less plows.

Trencher

Re:Winter driving

Sun, 21 Dec 2008 09:11:58 GMT

Trencher wrote:

Ian Wickham wrote:I guess with global warming this whole subject matter will be a thing of the past soon :-)

Who knows. If the Gulf stream shifts, you may be using chains to drive into London in the winter :lol: So many tipping points may be reached that the world could potentially look very different.

interesting point, have you seen much about what effect jet stream deflection is having on the current weather? it was the dominant feature of summer weather and there's some odd snow fall patterns across Europe I believe.

Trencher wrote:Do large cities have snow emergencies in Europe ? Here after a snow storm, Cities will announce a snow emergency. This means you can only park on the even number side of the street one night and the odd number side the next night. This allows them to plow the whole street over two nights. It's common for hundreds of cars to be towed away.

In the suburbs, there is no street parking at night during the winter to allow for snow plowing.

:lol: no, possibly there's not a substantial problem with cars being left on the street here though. In suburbs there'd be basically no street parking at all.

Re:Winter driving

Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:36:44 GMT

Dave Mac wrote:There is a bit of semantics here.

The bottom line is, 1 November-15 April:

If I do a car hire, do not have winter tyres, and the journey does not encounter "snow, slush,ice", then I am legal.

If, on the other hand, during the hire period, at a time when I am driving, and encounter "snow, slush,ice", then I am illegal. As a result, heavy fines or temporary loss of vehicle may be imposed for breaches of this legislation.

Do I feel lucky?

So this really does mean getting chains hired. Can be done at the car hire desk. What I do anyway, though not normally in March. Also important is understanding the road snow coverage aspect.

Dave. As an experienced Niederauer who drives from Munich in a hire car (if I read previous posts from you rightly), have you ever hired a car with winter tyres or had snow chains fitted when making the journey?

I was quoted 12 euros a day for winter tyres, which I think is a ridiculously expensive - If I had the car for a couple of weeks I would have paid for the tyres myself!

How much can I expect to pay to hire snow chains, and also from where can I hire/buy them, as I am told Avis do not rent them out at Munich airport?

Re:Winter driving

Sun, 21 Dec 2008 23:35:34 GMT

ldavies wrote:Er, Dave Mac and Jan,
Given that it's bucketing down in Niederau, and Blodyn abnd I are starting our journey, Thelma-and-Louise-style, early on Saturday morning, hoping to get to Worgle by, er, lunchtime, do you think we should invest in some chains?
My plan is to telephone big Phil or Eric and ask them to come down to Worgl with chains to fit Blod's car, if the Worgle/Niederau road is iffy. L.

Phil drives a big range rover, so his chains may not be entirely suitable. Anyway, he will probably be skiing. It's Saturday, so Eric will be organising rentals. Just take a good run at it when you get to the bottom of the hill. :-)

If the road is very bad, you could take up my suggestion of plan B. Park up near the rail station. Since you are early you could catch the post bus, although between two of you, a taxi won't cost much more, about 15 Euros, and wll take you to the door of the Staffler.

Unless it is dumping down, the road should be OK. It is arrival day, so there will be buses up and down all day, also there will be big shovels in use, and probably the road will be gritted. But I wouldn't worry too much. Thelma and Louise would have talked their way through it.

If you do get stuck, and if you are still there at 4.00pm ish, we will wave to you as we pass. :lol:

Tony, I have not used winter tyres on hire cars. My land rover tyres would have qualified OK, when I have driven out. Most hire cars are fairly young cars, and have decent tyre tread.

I plan to rent chains at Munich, have done this on previous occasions. Have certainly hired from Europcar, and I think we did so from Avis too. Renting chains is a guarantee that you won't need to use them :wink:

Bit of research required methinks.