Latest posts for the topic "One for the instructors..."

One for the instructors...

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:13:33 GMT

As per my previous posts...I'm off to Chamonix at the end of January with the OH and 3 friends.

I'm a fairly confident intermediate skier, but the rest are complete beginners. I'll be having refresher lessons before I go just to get back into it, as it's been a couple of years since I skied

The rest will be having 6 hours of lessons before we go, so should be able to snowplough turn. After that I think they'll be relying on tips from me as the price of lessons is going to be prohibitive...especially with the exchange rate so bad.

My question is this...

Assuming the rest of my group can ski, turn and stop in snowplough, and use their edges to stand up on a slope etc, what other skills would you introduce, and in what order?

I'm pretty sure I can pass on what I know, but just want to know whether there is an accepted order of learning.

Cheers.

Re:One for the instructors...

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:20:47 GMT

I think I hear a can of worms being opened )

I'm no longer qualified so I shall leave this for those that are but I would ask 2 questions.

Are you sure that you really know how you do what you do, and are you sure that what you do is what you should be passing on to your friends? :D

Re:One for the instructors...

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:29:15 GMT

Neiltoo wrote:I think I hear a can of worms being opened )

I'm no longer qualified so I shall leave this for those that are but I would ask 2 questions.

Are you sure that you really how you do what you do, and are you sure that what you do is what you should be passing on to your friends? :D

A can of worms indeed, but unfortunately, despite my best advice they all seem determined to avoid paying for lessons once we're there. I've told them also to get as much tuition before we go to speed along the process once we're there.

I'm not saying I'm going to teach them really. Just tell them what I do and let them work it out for themselves. A couple of them I'm fairly confident will simply throw themselves into it and learn fairly quickly. The others...well, I don't know, but I've got to try something to help them get the best out of their limited skiing while we're there.

The holiday is booked and we're going. If they won't/can't pay for lessons then what other option do I have?!

I won't be taking them on anything more than intermediate slopes, that's for sure.

Re:One for the instructors...

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:39:23 GMT

Had to read your post a few times to make sure I read it right !?! :D

I wouldn't know where to start, but rather you than me :D

Seriously though I reckon your OH/mates must be able to justify a couple of private lessons between them. This'll work out reasonably cheap between them, and will prove invaluable.

Having taken complete beginners before, the one thing I can assure you of, is that you'll have a whole bunch of fun, and probably stop for more hot chocolates tan you usually would do.

Re:One for the instructors...

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:42:21 GMT

hymac580 wrote:Had to read your post a few times to make sure I read it right !?! :D

I wouldn't know where to start, but rather you than me :D

Seriously though I reckon your OH/mates must be able to justify a couple of private lessons between them. This'll work out reasonably cheap between them, and will prove invaluable.

Having taken complete beginners before, the one thing I can assure you of, is that you'll have a whole bunch of fun, and probably stop for more hot chocolates tan you usually would do.

I'm not exactly overjoyed about it.

I really don't think I'm going to be able to convince them to pay for lessons (the OH is skint and too proud to let me pay...the other are plain tight), although I am still trying.

Assuming I fail on that count, any tips from anyone would be greatly appreciated.

Re:One for the instructors...

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:03:23 GMT

Get a good instructional dvd now and make them watch it over and over so that they learn the drills that they'll then practice on the slopes??

It sounds like a nightmare to me - I consider myself a good to advanced intermediate, but I really really struggled to teach my kids when they were learning a couple of years ago. I knew what to do for myself but I couldn't remember the basic drills that you learn when you start out and those that I could remember i wasn't very good at getting across to them. I guess that's why I'm not a teacher :lol:

Re:One for the instructors...

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:17:59 GMT

Why are you going to Chamonix?

Re:One for the instructors...

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:21:37 GMT

Brucie wrote:Why are you going to Chamonix?

Do you want the obvious answer, or is there more to that question?

Re:One for the instructors...

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:25:42 GMT

I am really just wondering why your beginner friends want to learn to ski in one of the more advanced areas of the alps?
There are countless other more suitable places to learn, and there is also the ski in ski out issue.
And if they are, as you put it, 'plain tight', why go to the most expensive place!!! :shock:

Re:One for the instructors...

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:31:09 GMT

Brucie wrote:I am really just wondering why your beginner friends want to learn to ski in one of the more advanced areas of the alps?
There are countless other more suitable places to learn, and there is also the ski in ski out issue.

It seems like a good compromise. there are beginner's ski areas at the bottom of most of the resorts, and places like Domaine de Balme and Brevent/Flegere seem OK for when the beginners progress a little.

Add that to the fact that we can do the whole week in a private apartment including lift pass for around GBP500pp and it doesn't seem too bad.

Ski in/ski out not an issue for us. We've got a car and will be able to find our way around.

And if they are, as you put it, 'plain tight', why go to the most expensive place!!!

I may have been a little harsh when I said that, but the financial situation has worsened a LOT since we booked. Given that fact, my friends are reluctant to part with more money than strictly necessary.

I haven't really found booking in Chamonix particularly more expensive than other places. Also, the girls aren't going to want to ski all week, so we wanted to go somewhere where they could find other entertainment while us boys are on the mountain.

Re:One for the instructors...

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:43:13 GMT

I know all about it - I'm Scottish after all!!!!!!!!!!

I dont know what advice to give on the instructing issue.
Like other posters have said, I think that a proper start(ie ski school) will be worth the expense in the long run.

The slopes all over the world are littered with self taught skiers who, due to a lack of basic technique, find it very difficult to pass intermediate level.

Anyway, dont get hung up on it. Have a great Holiday!! :lol:

Re:One for the instructors...

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:52:50 GMT

I'm Scottish after all

I'm sure there's some scots about that wouldn't like that too much, but I've never found one yet!!! My boss is exactly the same...tight, Scottish and proud!

I'm not gonna get too hung up on it. We'll have a good week no matter what, but I just want to help them make the most of whatever we do, as it was me who persuaded everyone to go in the first place.

Looking at some prices, private lessons for 5 people will work out to 23 euros for a 2 hour lesson. Doesn't seem too bad to me, but I'll still have to convince the others.

One for the instructors...

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:02:46 GMT

Hoop wrote:As per my previous posts...I'm off to Chamonix at the end of January with the OH and 3 friends.

I'm a fairly confident intermediate skier, but the rest are complete beginners. I'll be having refresher lessons before I go just to get back into it, as it's been a couple of years since I skied

The rest will be having 6 hours of lessons before we go, so should be able to snowplough turn. After that I think they'll be relying on tips from me as the price of lessons is going to be prohibitive...especially with the exchange rate so bad.

My question is this...

Assuming the rest of my group can ski, turn and stop in snowplough, and use their edges to stand up on a slope etc, what other skills would you introduce, and in what order?

I'm pretty sure I can pass on what I know, but just want to know whether there is an accepted order of learning.

Cheers.

Hoop, oops, big mistake, you must have lessons, find the money, drink less beer, well ok forget that one but for you and your mates to enjoy there very expensive holiday they will need to continue with the lessons, I can pass on loads of tips but I'll be doing you a disservice. Convince them find the money. :lol:

Re:One for the instructors...

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:03:53 GMT

I'm sure if between you all, you payed for rossF or bennyboy to come they'd teach them!

Hope you don't mind me volunteering you two by the way?? :mrgreen: :lol:

Re:One for the instructors...

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 23:51:53 GMT

Hoop,

Like the other ex's, I would not deem to to offer a weeks diy ski manual on J2.

Also, like some of the other guys, I can't believe if money was a seriously critical issue, that Chamonix was the wisest choice. Or even France. I submit that your day costs will be a factor approaching 3 x those in Austria, and your evening cost might be double or maybe one and a half if you are sitting in the apartment at night.

So you could have gone to Mayrhofen, 20th Jan, b&b, for GBP249, fly, transfer, b&b. Menu meal for about a tenner. Lift pass GBP160, total GBP480. Tuition cost GBP120. Total GBP600.

Difference GBP100, and I will wager a guinea, you will spend more than that on the difference on the combined day+night cost between Chamonix and Mayrhofen.

Not only that, but if you had chosen a resort where the nursery slopes are in the village, you would not have needed a lift pass, just pay points for the Poma. My point being that part of the reason why your deal seems attractive, is that it includes the lift pass....

But, ~ you are where you are. I doubt that you will get a bona fide ski instructor in France to "do you a deal", he would have insurance costs and other overheads.

You could try and find a non-ski instructor local who would do you a cash in hand deal. You would not know what you are getting, and there could be bad outcomes.

All in all, it just comes back down to the fact that your friends are not understanding the real importance of getting instruction. By not investing in instruction, they are not saving GBP160, or GBP200. They are wasting the cost of the holiday.

You could try the tourist office, or, better still, the ski school. Explain the predicament, and see if they can offer a lower cost solution. You can also tackle your chalet offer, and see if they can substitute the lift pass offer with some ski instruction.

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:17:43 GMT

Hoop wrote:[
A can of worms indeed, but unfortunately, despite my best advice they all seem determined to avoid paying for lessons once we're there.

With the greatest respect, are these people total idiots?
Anyone thinking of skiing anywhere, let alone somewhere like Chamonix, without taking a full weeks worth of lessons must have something missing upstairs.
What price a weeks ski lessons compared to totally doing yourself in, doing someone else in, or just not getting on or enjoying it at all?

As Mr Mac has pointed out, you can get learn to ski packages really good value, and once you have had the basis weeks lessons, then is the time to experiment with what you can do yourself, under the guidance of an experienced skier or two I would have thought.

I am glad that you are not suggesting you will be giving them lessons, as they really would open up the can of worms, but they really should be looking to join a group or even take individual lessons. Being able to snowplough turn does not make anyone a competent skier.

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:24:00 GMT

Not discounting the good advice others have given on this thread, but in defence of Hoop: I think they had booked this holiday a long time ago when money wasn't as much of a concern as it is now.

Let's face it; getting a group of friends to come to a decision on what pub to meet at is difficult enough, never mind choosing the right resort. If it is a group of blokes then they almost definately thought they would all be candidates for the winter X games after day 2, so Chamonix being more advenced probably did not feature in the beer enhanced decision making process.

It sounds like he has done the right thing in stressing that lessons are an invaluable investment and should not be left up to a mate to pass on his bad habits. But they are having non of it.

So he is in an akward position. The way I see it is that he has three choices:
1 - refuse to teach them and give them all the information they need to book some lessons. This is not going to make him popular.
2 - pay for them to have lessons so he can sod off and enjoy some skiing. A popular choice but why should he pay for them. (I suggest this investment can be recooped as a stealth beer tax over the duration of the holiday)
3 - try to "tell them what to do and work it out for themselves" (which sounds a lot like trying to teach them) In agreement with everything others have said, this is a very bad option.

If you are going to take option 3, then make sure you go to the Le Tour area of Chamonix. The wide open and less steep lower slopes there will be much less crowded. They will stand a better chance of being able to learn something.

That said, countless relationships have been destroyed by friends/boyfriends/girlfriends/husbands/wives trying to instruct.

Remember, progression from beginner to intermediate level is as much about confidence as it is about technique. If you do not have confidence in your abilities to instruct them, and you probably shouldn't, then you will find it difficult to impart confidence on your mates.

My advice is to go with option 2 if you can afford it. You mates might see how serious you are if you are forced to stump up your own cash.

Good luck.

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:26:05 GMT

Tony_H wrote:
With the greatest respect, are these people total idiots?
Anyone thinking of skiing anywhere, let alone somewhere like Chamonix, without taking a full weeks worth of lessons must have something missing upstairs.

I don't know, have you seen some of the people that ski? It can't be that hard :D

Joking aside you're quite right of course. More to the point, it's his holiday as well, it's a bit selfish to impose like that, he's going to want to ski himself not be confined to a few easy slopes and waiting all the time.

In the same situation I'd not teach them but actually posing the question to instructors is a bit difficult, I can't teach someone in France simply because I'm not allowed to without a barrow load of paperwork.

The right answer's got to be you can't teach them and it probably wants spelling out up front to avoid misunderstandings. At the same time you can make it clear what you can do, help getting lift passes, getting hire kit, meeting for lunch, skiing for a few hours on some easy slopes and so on. Just getting around the mountain is awkward for novices, they're worried they'll get on a lift and not be able to ski down for example, so that's something you can help with for a few hours.

I'd get this sorted PDQ as well, without booking you might struggle to get lessons set up and then you're stitched up. At the same why not book yourself a private lesson? Makes the point nicely that a) you need to do your own thing and b) you're not an instructor.

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:04:49 GMT

Ise wrote:

At the same why not book yourself a private lesson? Makes the point nicely that a) you need to do your own thing and b) you're not an instructor.

Neat solution.

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:28:41 GMT

steverandomno wrote:Not discounting the good advice others have given on this thread, but in defence of Hoop: I think they had booked this holiday a long time ago when money wasn't as much of a concern as it is now.

Let's face it; getting a group of friends to come to a decision on what pub to meet at is difficult enough, never mind choosing the right resort. If it is a group of blokes then they almost definately thought they would all be candidates for the winter X games after day 2, so Chamonix being more advenced probably did not feature in the beer enhanced decision making process.

It sounds like he has done the right thing in stressing that lessons are an invaluable investment and should not be left up to a mate to pass on his bad habits. But they are having non of it.

So he is in an akward position. The way I see it is that he has three choices:
1 - refuse to teach them and give them all the information they need to book some lessons. This is not going to make him popular.
2 - pay for them to have lessons so he can sod off and enjoy some skiing. A popular choice but why should he pay for them. (I suggest this investment can be recooped as a stealth beer tax over the duration of the holiday)
3 - try to "tell them what to do and work it out for themselves" (which sounds a lot like trying to teach them) In agreement with everything others have said, this is a very bad option.

If you are going to take option 3, then make sure you go to the Le Tour area of Chamonix. The wide open and less steep lower slopes there will be much less crowded. They will stand a better chance of being able to learn something.

My advice is to go with option 2 if you can afford it. You mates might see how serious you are if you are forced to stump up your own cash.

Good luck.

With the greatest respect to all who have posted opinions on my predicament (and they are greatly appreciated), this is the only post that I feel pays any heed to the situation.

Simply saying that (and I'm paraphrasing here) "instruction is ESSENTIAL, your friends need their head read etc etc" doesn't really help me solve what is proving to be a difficult and stressful problem.

With regards to the choice of resort...most literature that I read, and advice taken from various sources (websites, friends) suggested that Chamonix had enough skiing of all levels to cater for my group. I know that a lot of the skiing in Chamonix can be considered advanced, but there is surely enough to sate my desire to ski and my friends' desire to learn. Maybe another resort would have been better, but it's booked...and has been since early August when we weren't so concerned by money. Again, telling me "what we could have won" by booking in Mayrhofen isn't helpful. All it does is make me feel worse about a situation that I already feel responsible for having created.

I've emailed a recommended ski instructors company (Evolution 2), and will hopefully convince them all (my friends) that at least a couple of 2 or 3 hour private lessons at just over 10E per hour are a good idea, but at some point we're going to be skiing without an instructor (does anybody have lessons all day, every day for a whole weeks holiday?!), and I would have liked to be able to help them along. Now I just feel like I'm going to get someone killed if I try.

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:33:45 GMT

Hoop,
AS PER DAVE MAC AND TONY H,
your friends will not have a holiday if they don't book lessons. simple. it's a false economy to not have lessons. and what happens if/when someone falls and hurts themselves because they have no idea what they're doing? what if they career into someone else on the piste because THEY can't stop?
having taught children to ski under the watchfulness of the ski school in N, i can tell you it takes me two and a half days from complete beginner stage to get children on the lift system.
please show your friends selected posts on this, no, all the posts, so that they can at least make an informed decision. good luck- you'll need it! L.

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:46:46 GMT

ldavies wrote:Hoop,
AS PER DAVE MAC AND TONY H,
your friends will not have a holiday if they don't book lessons. simple. it's a false economy to not have lessons. and what happens if/when someone falls and hurts themselves because they have no idea what they're doing? what if they career into someone else on the piste because THEY can't stop?
having taught children to ski under the watchfulness of the ski school in N, i can tell you it takes me two and a half days from complete beginner stage to get children on the lift system.
please show your friends selected posts on this, no, all the posts, so that they can at least make an informed decision. good luck- you'll need it! L.

Re: false ecomomy...I fully agree, and am doing my utmost to resolve the situation as quickly as possible.

Re: the second point. I'm sure you're not suggesting that people having lessons never fall and hurt themselves? Obviously, lessons enable you to learn faster, in turn reducing the likelihood of a nasty fall as time progresses, but the reality is that anyone can have a fall and hurt themselves, whether in a lesson or not. Even experienced skiers have nasty accidents all the time. My friend's father was the president (or something like that) of Norfolk Ski Club and had a horrendous injury recently from a seemingly inocuous piece of skiing.

Was somebody on here not asking for advice the other day as their wife had had a fall on her first lesson and broken her wrist?

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:50:36 GMT

Hoop, like most forums, read the replies and make your own decisions, these guys are only trying to give you advice based on their experiences, it is completely up to you if you take the advice. Happy holidays 8)

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:55:13 GMT

Ian Wickham wrote:Hoop, like most forums, read the replies and make your own decisions, these guys are only trying to give you advice based on their experiences, it is completely up to you if you take the advice. Happy holidays 8)

Of course. I'm not suggesting that people are being knowingly or deliberately unhelpful.

On a lighter note...I see you're in Norwich. Do you ski at Trowse at all?

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:02:50 GMT

Hoop wrote:

Re: the second point. I'm sure you're not suggesting that people having lessons never fall and hurt themselves? Obviously, lessons enable you to learn faster, in turn reducing the likelihood of a nasty fall as time progresses, but the reality is that anyone can have a fall and hurt themselves, whether in a lesson or not. Even experienced skiers have nasty accidents all the time. My friend's father was the president (or something like that) of Norfolk Ski Club and had a horrendous injury recently from a seemingly inocuous piece of skiing.

Was somebody on here not asking for advice the other day as their wife had had a fall on her first lesson and broken her wrist?

If you or your friends lose control,hit another skier and injure them on French ski slopes, it is likely that a Gendarme will be called and statements taken. 3 years ago I was invited to press charges for assault after a woman crashed into me on a French ski slope.

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:08:28 GMT

bandit wrote:
If you or your friends lose control,hit another skier and injure them on French ski slopes, it is likely that a Gendarme will be called and statements taken. 3 years ago I was invited to press charges for assault after a woman crashed into me on a French ski slope.

That seems nuts. It's an inherently dangerous sport, and that could quite feasibly happen to anyone purely accidentally.

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:13:29 GMT

Hoop,

Not an instructor's view, but a practical approach for you as you seem to be feeling some responsibility for your mates. Assuming that they take some lessons, all you can do is try to keep everyone's expectations real and try to curb any excess bravado. You will be able to advise on where these friends should not go, helping them not to get into too much trouble. If anything, help them focus on building skills on easier terrain. If they want some competition, then make it about how many turns can you do on a run, not how fast can you go. Shift the focus of group runs to the turns and practice stopping in different conditions. Point out the rescue sleds when you see them and make sure they know that most accidents come from being out of control. Ostracise anyone that bombs a run. Above all, know that you are only offering advice on where and what to do and not giving instruction. Be careful not to fudge the line or assume the mantle of official leader.

I agree with all the previous advice, but when you ask an instructors opinion, you will get a professional answer.

Trencher

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:17:30 GMT

Is this thread not getting a bit daft :!: Can we get some perspective.

Before you know it we'll be accusing Hoop of attempted manslaughter/gbh/assault with an offensive skier.

Give the guy a break.

If his mates are inconsiderate/stupid enough to not have lessons ( even experienced skiers have lessons) then that's their problem.

Yes, potentially they could hurt someone else, but to be honest they're far more likely to have a darned good time, and maybe crash into each other :!:

Graham

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:26:03 GMT

hymac580 wrote:Is this thread not getting a bit daft :!: Can we get some perspective.

Before you know it we'll be accusing Hoop of attempted manslaughter/gbh/assault with an offensive skier.

Give the guy a break.

If his mates are inconsiderate/stupid enough to not have lessons ( even experienced skiers have lessons) then that's their problem.

Yes, potentially they could hurt someone else, but to be honest they're far more likely to have a darned good time, and maybe crash into each other :!:

Graham

Sure, I endured 16 weeks with a broken collarbone to consider my perspective on out of control skiers. 3 years on and my r/s Acromion joint is still displaced as a result of the injury.

Lets all hope that they have adequate insurance.

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:32:14 GMT

hymac580 wrote:Is this thread not getting a bit daft :!: Can we get some perspective.

Before you know it we'll be accusing Hoop of attempted manslaughter/gbh/assault with an offensive skier.

Give the guy a break.

If his mates are inconsiderate/stupid enough to not have lessons ( even experienced skiers have lessons) then that's their problem.

Yes, potentially they could hurt someone else, but to be honest they're far more likely to have a darned good time, and maybe crash into each other :!:

Graham

But that's exactly how the law does actually work both that an individual can be held liable and that someone who's supervising other people with or without relevant qualifications can be held liable. There's a particular danger that an experienced skier with inexperienced skiers can be judged to have some liability. It's a danger I'm aware of and I'm actually insured for it.

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:34:35 GMT

In hindsight, I probably asked the wrong question in creating this thread.

If I'd thought more carefully I might have asked the question that Trencher has unwittingly answered. I don't really want to teach them to ski, and if that's the impression I gave then sorry to all that took it that way. All I want to do is make sure they all have a good time. They have no intention of trying to be experts by the end of the week. They just want to have a laugh, and learn a bit while they're at it.

None of us will be attempting and extreme terrain, and there will certainly be no sense of competition. My friends just aren't like that. The closest they will get is pushing themselves to learn and progress

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:45:01 GMT

Hoop wrote:If I'd thought more carefully I might have asked the question that Trencher has unwittingly answered.

Not so much with the unwittingly :lol:

Trencher

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:50:21 GMT

Hoop,

You've said they should have had 6 hours on a dry slope. I presume they can snowplough at the end of that.
To help you in your predicament ... if you can get them to a parallel turn in the first day or two they can then progress at their own rate.
The first day you can maybe just get them used to speed and their ability to control that speed and stopping. Go from one side of the piste to the other, stopping every time.
Like any beginner they will have to get used to controlling their speed.
Once the penny falls with parallel turning then they can maybe keep each other company in smaller groups, suited to their own abilities.

G

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:51:37 GMT

Trencher wrote:
Not so much with the unwittingly :lol:

Trencher

Smart @rse :lol:

This thread is getting a bit much. Wish I'd never asked.

ise

Who are you insured with for that. The missus is in insurance and is a little confused by your post.

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:09:41 GMT

Hoop wrote:
ise

Who are you insured with for that. The missus is in insurance and is a little confused by your post.

why is she confused?

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:52:43 GMT

Because the wording of the policies that she deals with (over 150 different policies) state that it's the responsibility of the person, not a more experienced skier who happens to be skiing with them.

If an instructor told a beginner to ski down a black run and they did so and injured themselves or someone else, then the instructor would be liable.

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:58:38 GMT

Legally you can't "sell off" your liability, you can insure against it. Usually instructors are covered by their particular organisation.

Hoop, whilst no one has been particularly helpful, I will offer some advice. See if you can get a CSIA handbook on Ebay.. it will give you some simple drills and some simple causing factors to look out for when guiding folks. Otherwise go and enjoy it.

Re:One for the instructors...

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 23:32:19 GMT

Hoop wrote:In hindsight, I probably asked the wrong question in creating this thread.

If I'd thought more carefully I might have asked the question that Trencher has unwittingly answered. I don't really want to teach them to ski, and if that's the impression I gave then sorry to all that took it that way. All I want to do is make sure they all have a good time. They have no intention of trying to be experts by the end of the week. They just want to have a laugh, and learn a bit while they're at it.

None of us will be attempting and extreme terrain, and there will certainly be no sense of competition. My friends just aren't like that. The closest they will get is pushing themselves to learn and progress

Hoop,

I don't think that any of us have misunderstood the predicament, and if you read between the lines, most of us feel a deal of empathy. I half regret contrasting Mayrhofen, but only half, and it wasn't aimed at you as an individual, but at problem issues seen on a regular basis.

Many of us have been involved in the development of other people's skiing, with children or friends. I guess it is the scale of having 5 people to deal with. There is no way it can not look like a class.

That is not the same as having a few runs down the beginners slope with a mate. This happens all the time. So, I guess you could do a bit of this, without fall out.

The more I think about Ise's suggestion that you book a lesson or two for yourself, the more it might seem to work on several levels. You would be sending a clear message about your own commitment to improving your ski technique. You would be putting clear water between your commitment and theirs.

It's a tough position, and I wish you luck.

Re:One for the instructors...

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:07:57 GMT

Hoop

I can only talk from experience of being one of those learners on holiday with others who were more than able at skiing. I have to say that I put myself into ski school in a morning and then met up with friends in the afternoon and they would then take me back down runs i had done that morning or runs that were of a similar level. At no time did my friends give me any real instruction it was more very generic advice and giving me the confidence and practice to continue.

This system worked for us all as I got the lessons whilst they got to tour the area and get the serious skiing out of their system in the morning and thereafter it was a chilled afternoon for them and more practice for me.

This year the shoe was on the other foot in that I took my best mate skiing for the first time but once again I insisted on her going into ski school but to avoid any problems/issues I also put myself into ski school at the same time (this had a dual purpose for me however as i was able to improve my technique but also it meant I wasn't skiing by myself which I try to avoid doing a lot of just from a safety aspect). At lunch I would meet up with my mate and in an afternoon we would ski together for awhile and I would give her odd hints that I could see on her technique or things that may help her in the skiing mindset but her "instruction" came from her lessons I only served the purpose of giving her more confidence in what she had learned in ski school by doing the same or similar runs again.

Its a difficult situation for you but I do think your mates will benefit ten times over from having at least a few lessons and then just practicing it form themselves. Surely as mates they will understand your predicament....!? :roll:

Re:One for the instructors...

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 05:25:33 GMT

Hoop wrote:Because the wording of the policies that she deals with (over 150 different policies) state that it's the responsibility of the person, not a more experienced skier who happens to be skiing with them.

Yes, I rather presumed the subtext there was the misapprehension you were better informed than me.

Hoop wrote:If an instructor told a beginner to ski down a black run and they did so and injured themselves or someone else, then the instructor would be liable.

You probably need to think that through, you can't actually have it both ways, either it's your first guess that it's the responsibility of the person or it's your second guess that it's the instructor. If you want to go with the second guess then you might also guess the instructor is liable as there is established a duty of care, you might then make some guesses about other situations where a duty of care would be presumed.

Re:One for the instructors...

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:34:42 GMT

Hoop wrote:

bandit wrote:
If you or your friends lose control,hit another skier and injure them on French ski slopes, it is likely that a Gendarme will be called and statements taken. 3 years ago I was invited to press charges for assault after a woman crashed into me on a French ski slope.

That seems nuts. It's an inherently dangerous sport, and that could quite feasibly happen to anyone purely accidentally.

If you assault another person in the street, you would likely be arrested. Why should skiing be any different?

If you cause injury to another person whilst driving your car, you would expect the police to show up.Why should skiing be different?

Re:One for the instructors...

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:49:38 GMT

Brimster wrote:Hoop

I can only talk from experience of being one of those learners on holiday with others who were more than able at skiing. I have to say that I put myself into ski school in a morning and then met up with friends in the afternoon and they would then take me back down runs i had done that morning or runs that were of a similar level. At no time did my friends give me any real instruction it was more very generic advice and giving me the confidence and practice to continue.

This system worked for us all as I got the lessons whilst they got to tour the area and get the serious skiing out of their system in the morning and thereafter it was a chilled afternoon for them and more practice for me.

This year the shoe was on the other foot in that I took my best mate skiing for the first time but once again I insisted on her going into ski school but to avoid any problems/issues I also put myself into ski school at the same time (this had a dual purpose for me however as i was able to improve my technique but also it meant I wasn't skiing by myself which I try to avoid doing a lot of just from a safety aspect). At lunch I would meet up with my mate and in an afternoon we would ski together for awhile and I would give her odd hints that I could see on her technique or things that may help her in the skiing mindset but her "instruction" came from her lessons I only served the purpose of giving her more confidence in what she had learned in ski school by doing the same or similar runs again.

Its a difficult situation for you but I do think your mates will benefit ten times over from having at least a few lessons and then just practicing it form themselves. Surely as mates they will understand your predicament....!? :roll:

TA DA !!!!

I think Davey Macca also suggested something similar, and I have to say that when I was learning, I was in ski school twice a day, and in the gaps between, I was joined by other experienced skiers in my party for our own little tour around the local slopes, which gave me the opportunity to unwind, realx a little, and fall over as much as possible without feeling totally embarrassed.

I have to say, Hoops' mates really should go into lessons, and if it means Hoop having some too, all the better all round.

Hoop - I totally understand your situation, and I dont think anyone is trying to suggest you do things differently, but you have to take the pressure off yourself, or I can guarantee the holiday will be nothing short of a disaster. Skiing holidays with such mixed abilities can be difficult, as for us more experienced people, its hard to remember that people dont actually know how to get off chairlifts for example!!!!

I hope your friends see sense above cost saving, and see the bigger picture, which is that forking out now for a weeks worth of lessons will ensure better times ahead on the slopes.
I really hope it all works out for you.

Re:One for the instructors...

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:57:38 GMT

This is all getting silly and off topic!!!

Bandit - In answer to your question. Ski-ing is different because it is a sport not a criminal activity. To constutute a crime requires MENS REA -

'actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea'

which means that "the act does not make a person guilty unless the mind is also guilty".

Why have we developed into a whining society where there is no such thing as an accident!! :evil:

Re:One for the instructors...

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:37:50 GMT

Brucie wrote:This is all getting silly and off topic!!!

Bandit - In answer to your question. Ski-ing is different because it is a sport not a criminal activity. To constutute a crime requires MENS REA -

'actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea'

which means that "the act does not make a person guilty unless the mind is also guilty".

Why have we developed into a whining society where there is no such thing as an accident!! :evil:

I think the point is that in Europe we've got civil responsibility so if you kick a rock down the hill and it hits someone you're held to be responsible, the UK common law doesn't quite run as clearly. That's why as bandit pointed out if you do ski into someone, or cycle into them in summer if you like, there's a good chance you'll be arrested.

Mens rea of course is common law and mostly applies in the UK and US and not so much in old world Europe.

You're right it's off topic, I think that's because there was a pretty clear consensus pretty quickly that getting landed teaching your mates to ski was a bad thing. A general discussion of liability etc is quite interesting.

Re:One for the instructors...

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:43:46 GMT

Brucie wrote:This is all getting silly and off topic!!!

Bandit - In answer to your question. Ski-ing is different because it is a sport not a criminal activity. To constutute a crime requires MENS REA -

'actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea'

which means that "the act does not make a person guilty unless the mind is also guilty".

Why have we developed into a whining society where there is no such thing as an accident!! :evil:

I think people are getting too deep into this - this is not an appropriate forum for a detailed consideration of the legal implications of "accidents" on the slopes and I see little point in peolle getting all het up about it. Especially, since I am presuming that we do not have too many legal experts and, in particular, experts on the different legal systems of France, Austria, etc.

For me, it comes down to common sense - yes, accidents will happen and people need to accept that this is part of the sport. However, this does not excuse reckless, out of control skiing by anybody :twisted:. Where people engaging in such behaviour injure others, then they should be held to account and to be honest, it is irritating that they so rarely will be :evil:. The same goes for skiing while drunk (and I mean drunk - not just a milligram over some administrative limit because you had a pint at lunchtime or a shot of rum in your hot chocolate :x).

Rant over - now back to the thread!

Hoop: Tony has given some good advice - don't get too worked up about the situation - its your holiday as well and you are entitled to enjoy yourself. A compelling case for lessons has been made repeatedly and you might want to let your mates know the concerns of your J2ski friends.

And, finally, do not underestimate the extreme limitations of people on skis for the first time. We quickly forget how difficult it was to simply stand up on snow without the skis drifting away on their own on even the most modest of slopes or how intimidating even the slowest little baby drag lift was.

Re:One for the instructors...

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:03:13 GMT

Wanderer wrote:
I think people are getting too deep into this - this is not an appropriate forum for a detailed consideration of the legal implications of "accidents" on the slopes and I see little point in peolle getting all het up about it. Especially, since I am presuming that we do not have too many legal experts and, in particular, experts on the different legal systems of France, Austria, etc.

why is it the wrong forum? and why presume that someone else might not know something about it?

Re:One for the instructors...

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:16:55 GMT

Having attempted to draw a line under this tangential discussion, it would appear that some dogs wish to continue gnawing the bone!!

Ok, as ise says, lets not assume that people are talking from a position of legal weakness!

To my mind the question, in any enlightened legal system, revolves around culpability, i.e. 'an act so reckless as to show utter disregard for the consequences'.

In those circumstances I wholly concur with the 'black caps' who would string the miscreants up and throw away the key.

However, lets not make a presumption of legal involvement, when a show of remorse and an apology can easily defuse the situation.
( And end up with a friend made over a reconciliatory gluhwein or two!!)

Re:One for the instructors...

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:14:14 GMT

Brucie wrote:

However, lets not make a presumption of legal involvement, when a show of remorse and an apology can easily defuse the situation.
( And end up with a friend made over a reconciliatory gluhwein or two!!)

I dont think some people appreciate the potential seriousness of this situation. Try saying what you just said when you have had a collision and the other person is out cold and being put on a helicopter to be flown straight to hospital 20 miles away. Or try having someone say that to you when its you on the helicopter.

Re:One for the instructors...

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:45:06 GMT

If you end up in Bognor make sure you don't take responsibiilty for anyone else going with you :lol: :)

Re:One for the instructors...

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:48:04 GMT

hey hoop.
use the learner slopes at plannards or the longer learner slopes at le tours.
as for chamonix being expensive, when i read up on the place before i went for the first time,"even the wealthy are reluctant to get there wallets out when it comes to dinning out"
depends where you eat and drink.
although you are going self catering i would asume,the spar is reasonably priced.
you can do the place on a low budget and enjoy yourselves.
i have been there 4 times now and always had a good time.
have a good holiday and make the most of what you got.

Re:One for the instructors...

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:59:04 GMT

Brimster wrote:If you end up in Bognor make sure you don't take responsibiilty for anyone else going with you :lol: :)

Isn't that where they send you if you crash into somebody?

P.S. You know where to come for advice in a few years when you mates want to try some uninsured off piste skiing without avalanche trancievers (after ten pints and some acid). :lol: :twisted:

Re:One for the instructors...

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:34:37 GMT

Ok, I think we've done this one folks - some thought-provoking contributions very sensibly reminding us all to take care; especially when we may (unwittingly or otherwise) have others looking to us for advice.

Have a great holiday Hoop, push your mates to invest in their skiing (instruction is much better value than beer!), and don't take responsibility for them.

...and have a great Christmas! 8)