Latest posts for the topic "Too late for me - please sort out my sons future"

Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:18:35 GMT

Here I am in the UK, on the web, checking out anything to do with skiing and the mountains dozens of times a day, whilst working in an industry being crucified by the downturn, wondering why I made the decisions that got me here, and salivating at the prospect of just 1 week of skiing this year.

Now, I know it's too late for me, with all the responsibilities I'm now encumbered with, but my snowboarding mad 16 year old son, could forego the 'rat race' when he leave school in 2 years time, and wants to do something ( in fact not just something, but a career) that means he gets to live and work in the mountains.

What careers ( not in the 'rat race') can he pursue that means he gets to live and work in the mountains, whilst earning enough to aspire to marriage, children, maybe buying a flat/house.

Anyone currently ' living the dream' - how did you manage it?

Graham

Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:18:04 GMT

hymac580 wrote:Here I am in the UK, on the web, checking out anything to do with skiing and the mountains dozens of times a day, whilst working in an industry being crucified by the downturn, wondering why I made the decisions that got me here, and salivating at the prospect of just 1 week of skiing this year.

Now, I know it's too late for me, with all the responsibilities I'm now encumbered with, but my snowboarding mad 16 year old son, could forego the 'rat race' when he leave school in 2 years time, and wants to do something ( in fact not just something, but a career) that means he gets to live and work in the mountains.

What careers ( not in the 'rat race') can he pursue that means he gets to live and work in the mountains, whilst earning enough to aspire to marriage, children, maybe buying a flat/house.

Anyone currently ' living the dream' - how did you manage it?

Graham

Is snowboarding all he does? You really need a range of qualifications to get work all year around and actually live, even then working for someone else full-time or freelance really isn't going to pay so well in my opinion.

When he leaves school, if he wants to be a professional, he might still find University useful which will also provide chances for trips and to build experience.

Another option is just do an ordinary job but do it close to the mountains, it's always a way to build money to buy property and be financially secure before being a full-time outdoor professional. I know teachers for example who work in international schools here who do a lot of outdoor work with the schools and get paid to take additional NQB's.

The key word though is professional, he needs qualifications and loads of them really. Just being a snowsports instructor unless you're at the very, very top level doesn't pay so much and it's hard to work all year around. The other point, or a mistake to potentially avoid, is to ask if you want to merge your hobby and work, after-all what would you do on your day off? You can still work in the mountains but leave your hobby for your time off, just a thought!

How serious is he?

Re:Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:05:16 GMT

Having a 'trade' might be the key. We had a Dutch ski instructor in Les Arcs once who was a qualified mechanical engineer and he spent the summer maintaining the lift infrastructure and the winter instructing. Seemed like a nice balance to me.

Re:Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:25:58 GMT

mtr259 wrote:Having a 'trade' might be the key. We had a Dutch ski instructor in Les Arcs once who was a qualified mechanical engineer and he spent the summer maintaining the lift infrastructure and the winter instructing. Seemed like a nice balance to me.

depends how you view that really, what I read underlines my point that just being a snow-sports instructor isn't a full-time year round job. There's nothing wrong with that approach but you'd need to ask some questions, like, how long you're going to be doing it. Or just how much summer work he really gets, Arcs close the lifts in late April and reopen around December, is he really working from May to Nov on maintenance? It seems a bit unlikely to me based on what I see, more likely I'd expect a fixed contract of a few weeks. In the winter I'd be asking if he works for a ski school or not and just how much that really pays and the basis of the contract with them, is he paid just when he works or is it salaried? etc etc

There's probably three categories to think of, first, those who have a lifestyle that breaks even which is great while it lasts but no one wants to retire penniless, second, those who did something else for 20 or 30 years and bought their way in with a hotel or business etc, and third, those who've actually made a real career of it. I'd reckon you want to be in the last two groups at least really. You can mix and match obviously.

I'd underline though what I already said, long term I don't believe you're going to make a good living in the outdoors working for other people or at the least it's pretty exceptional..

Re:Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:54:36 GMT

I agree very much with what Ise has said. I spent a wonderful 15 years working in the alps and the rockies. Whilst I enjoyed every minute of it I often struggled to support myself, I certainly couldnt have contemplated having a family etc. I did many jobs, teaching , working for tour operators, barman, cleaning apartements etc.

Even at a managerial level with a tour operator I was not making enough money to support a family (the next step up usually involves working in an office - defeating the purpose!)

My aim was to ski as much as possible. Except for when I was teaching I pretty much skied (for me) 5 days a week for 10 or 11 years. I'm sure I gave up some pretty good opportunities because I just wanted to ski all the time but that was my choice.

I think a gap year spent working in a ski resort (doing any job) is a great way of finding out what goes on, seeing what opportunities there are and then making plans based on that. Most ski resorts are communities which require all the usual services and skills which you would find in any small town.

Most of the people I know who are 'living the dream' have either been lucky (right place, right time) or have started their own business and been successful or have a skill that is in demand.

I could have kept teaching and maybe I would have got to a stage where I could have made a reasonable living but I loved teaching/didnt like working for ski schools and instructors don't get a lot of time to ski for themselves.

A second language is a huge advantage [assuming they speak it where you are working ) ]

Re:Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:09:42 GMT

ise wrote:[
There's probably three categories to think of, first, those who have a lifestyle that breaks even which is great while it lasts but no one wants to retire penniless, second, those who did something else for 20 or 30 years and bought their way in with a hotel or business etc, and third, those who've actually made a real career of it. I'd reckon you want to be in the last two groups at least really. You can mix and match obviously.

..

I realise I'm asking the impossible. I agree with Ise about the 3 categories. Category 2 is where i find myself, but unable to untangle my current life to pursue the mountains.

I'd like my lad to fall in category 3.

Very dissappointed to here from Neiltoo, that even at management level, one can't earn enough to 'settle down'.

Bearing in mind the fortunes we fork out for snow hols, surprising that proper livings can't be earned.

Re:Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:32:38 GMT

Neiltoo wrote:
I think a gap year spent working in a ski resort (doing any job) is a great way of finding out what goes on, seeing what opportunities there are and then making plans based on that. Most ski resorts are communities which require all the usual services and skills which you would find in any small town.

I have to be candid and say for me it's possibly a waste of a year ) I don't accept the principle of doing something you like for a while before going to do something else you don't like :D It's a bit like the condemned mans last breakfast to me. Hopefully Ross might weight in (and Benny?) with their gap year experiences taking qualifications, it's a gap year if you want or it's the foundation for a career.

Neiltoo wrote:A second language is a huge advantage [assuming they speak it where you are working ) ]

Yes, or two or three preferably, I meant to mention that and forgot.

Another thought, something I'm not recommending or promoting but just an option, is the Armed Forces route. A lot of people have gone this way and the forces have set them up via internal paths like JSML for a career in the outdoors. Former forces personnel are much sought after for some work.

hymac580 wrote:Very dissappointed to here from Neiltoo, that even at management level, one can't earn enough to 'settle down'.

hopefully I'm not going to offend Neil here :oops: If your lad wants a career then he needs qualifications, the reason working with tour companies doesn't pay too well is that anyone can do it for a few years and it keeps rates down. There's no good reason a young person can't build a career in the outdoor industry but they'll need to be every bit as committed to it as becoming, for example, an accountant and work just as hard at it. In the end the financial rewards aren't great but the lifestyle should be good and I do beleive you can live on it. In fact, one route is to build a business of your own and that's just as hard in the outdoors as the antique business or car repair etc.

He'll need to start quick though, it can take years to gain the experience for the elite level qualifications it's no surprise the average ages of guides, leaders etc. is into 30's and 40's you need a lot of experience, the technical skills are almost the easy bit really.

Re:Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:49:57 GMT

hymac580 wrote:

Very dissappointed to here from Neiltoo, that even at management level, one can't earn enough to 'settle down'.

I'm quite sure that it is possible, but I cant see one getting much time to ski.

Ise, I have a very thick skin ) and besides I agree with you. The standard of some of the people working in the travel industry is dreadful. Peanuts and monkeys comes to mind!

Possibly the term 'gap year' isnt quite right but I think its a good idea to see what life is like in a ski resort without having to give too much up to see if you like it.

I have a number of friends who went the armed forces route and it seems to have worked out well for them.

Re:Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:16:07 GMT

ise wrote: it can take years to gain the experience for the elite level qualifications it's no surprise the average ages of guides, leaders etc. is into 30's and 40's you need a lot of experience, the technical skills are almost the easy bit really.

ah... I should have also pointed out it's not cheap, it's a big commitment financially as well as in other ways.

Re:Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:25:43 GMT

Hymac, I'm afraid there is very little that I can add on the subject apart from to say that I agree with both Ise and Neil.

From personal experience all I can say is that I have always had a love for the outward bound whether it is skiing, climbing, walking etc I always had an unrelated career path set out in my head from a young age and this is what I have followed for the past 8 years and whilst I have often wondered whether I should have taken a year or two out after uni I didn't and have always fitted my activities around work and holidays - this has included every summer taking two weeks leave and volunteering on a charity outward bound camp for international students. Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your view I suffered a mini eureka moment in Soldeu, Andorra in the New Year and I am now off on a "career break" and am spending the ski season in Canada with a round the world trip planned after this (I'm hoping to be able to ski in 4 continents in 6 months). It is only as a result of my current career, hard work and supportive parents that I am now able to do this.

I am of the opinion that unless you are happy to put in a lot of ground work over a long number of years to become highly qualified and are then prepared to strike out on your own you will never be rich in the money sense in the outward bound world - you will however be rich in other ways. Also you have to remember that when you have your own business the opportunity of being outward bound is scarce due to the paperwork and other organisational aspects of running a business. At this point you could potentially become disillusioned with what you are doing and it may be better to be a professional in an unrelated industry and keep the skiing etc as a hobby (but live in the locality so it is on your doorstep rather than a flight away)

I think that you have to let your son make his own decisions in this life and whilst I appreciate that you want the best for him and for him to be the most successful at what he does it is only him that can determine as to whether he will be successful at it or not.

Sorry for the rambling...... :roll:

Re:Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:43:43 GMT

Whilst I agree making a good living is going to be really difficult (assuming you don't have a boat-load of money to muy a chalet and run a holiday apartment) there are other jobs in mountains for the warmer months.

Walking, climbing and especially biking are popular when there's no snow - whether it be mountain biking or serious cyclists having a bash at one of the Tour de France stages etc.

Presumably some of the activity companies will have career paths but for this,and has already been said, second and third languages will be essential.

Re:Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:53:05 GMT

KevinC wrote:Whilst I agree making a good living is going to be really difficult (assuming you don't have a boat-load of money to muy a chalet and run a holiday apartment) there are other jobs in mountains for the warmer months.

Walking, climbing and especially biking are popular when there's no snow - whether it be mountain biking or serious cyclists having a bash at one of the Tour de France stages etc.

Presumably some of the activity companies will have career paths but for this,and has already been said, second and third languages will be essential.

Re:Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:09:49 GMT

Tell him to become a plumber, almost every chalet I've ever stayed in has had some sort of plumbing related challenge!

Re:Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:25:28 GMT

that's what i was talking about, but you need qualifications, you can't just tip up and start taking people onto the mountain :) although I've no idea what if anything you need to take people cycling on the road. These qualifications are rather harder to get than most ski ones I'd suggest.

Erm......pass! It depends what you do but I'm sure some people do just guide others in the locality. Laurent Fignan(?!) for instance has cycling holidays where he rides up one of the mountains he won a TdF stage once. I know it's not the same but people are paying him good money just to follow him up a hill and that can't need much other than the ability to go up a hill! Fitness might be another issue though.

You are right about gaining qualifications certainly - some uni courses out of all those avaiable must combine travel and tourism stuff with teaching/leading outdoor activities surely though?

Re:Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:36:53 GMT

KevinC wrote:

that's what i was talking about, but you need qualifications, you can't just tip up and start taking people onto the mountain :) although I've no idea what if anything you need to take people cycling on the road. These qualifications are rather harder to get than most ski ones I'd suggest.

Erm......pass! It depends what you do but I'm sure some people do just guide others in the locality. Laurent Fignan(?!) for instance has cycling holidays where he rides up one of the mountains he won a TdF stage once. I know it's not the same but people are paying him good money just to follow him up a hill and that can't need much other than the ability to go up a hill! Fitness might be another issue though.

You are right about gaining qualifications certainly - some uni courses out of all those avaiable must combine travel and tourism stuff with teaching/leading outdoor activities surely though?

not really, not for qualifications that would allow you to lead groups in Europe on the hill, people on a uni' course might just, if they did no other study, clock up enough experience to be considered for entry but it would still take another 2 or more likely 3 years to complete anything.

But again, I've no idea what you need to take people road cycling but I can't see you could earn a year round income from that.

Re:Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:16:23 GMT

As with anything that involves chasing or creating a dream, one's ability to think outside the box is usually the deal-maker (or breaker). If you're looking for a life on the slopes, perhaps developing a talent like park ranger or photographer/cinematographer would act as a nice dovetail to coincide with his passion...

Re:Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:23:32 GMT

HeadAddict wrote:As with anything that involves chasing or creating a dream, one's ability to think outside the box is usually the deal-maker (or breaker). If you're looking for a life on the slopes, perhaps developing a talent like park ranger or photographer/cinematographer would act as a nice dovetail to coincide with his passion...

I sorry to say that people leave ski stations every season after a few months discovering there's already a local photographer or hairdresser or plumber :cry:

Re:Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:40:56 GMT

ise wrote:

HeadAddict wrote:As with anything that involves chasing or creating a dream, one's ability to think outside the box is usually the deal-maker (or breaker). If you're looking for a life on the slopes, perhaps developing a talent like park ranger or photographer/cinematographer would act as a nice dovetail to coincide with his passion...

I sorry to say that people leave ski stations every season after a few months discovering there's already a local photographer or hairdresser or plumber :cry:

Fair enough, but that is all assuming you're doing it for the masses on location. Why not take pictures for the people who can't be there, just as an example. I couldn't do it, but there is a money-making niche everywhere if you use your imagination... Personally, my business is virtual and needs only an internet connection to operate, so when I do go skiing, my Blackberry becomes only an emergency paperweight, as it should be. There are ways to do anything you want, that is the main point I wanted to make.

Re:Too late for me - please sort out my sons future

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:49:22 GMT

HeadAddict wrote:Fair enough, but that is all assuming you're doing it for the masses on location. Why not take pictures for the people who can't be there, just as an example. I couldn't do it, but there is a money-making niche everywhere if you use your imagination... Personally, my business is virtual and needs only an internet connection to operate, so when I do go skiing, my Blackberry becomes only an emergency paperweight, as it should be. There are ways to do anything you want, that is the main point I wanted to make.

I don't think there's any shortcuts, any dream won't really do to coin a phrase :) I think we've all seen on UK TV the endless programmes where people try and relocate to other places with rather pie in the sky ideas and come unstuck. Some people are born entrepreneurs and can make a life for themselves pretty much anywhere but you have to recognise most of us will succeed only by the rather boring hard work and application that'll be familiar to most readers from their own lifes. The advice to any young person wanting to make a life in the outdoors is little different from the advice if they wanted to be successful in any business, hard work, application, as many qualifications as they can get and to have some goals.

I think you probably underestimate the difficulties in getting established in ski towns at least in Europe, pretty much every profession is regulated to some extent and the hoops a ski instructor needs to jump through (i.e. speed test etc.) exist for most professions.

I'd like to make a living selling photo's though if that were possible :D