Latest posts for the topic "Austrian Avalanche"

Austrian Avalanche

Sat, 6 Feb 2016 18:09:53 GMT

At risk of judging before any real information is out, 12-17 people caught in avalanche is just ridiculous. Seems people are just completely oblivious to avalanche danger. Anyone can get caught / make a wrong judgment but normal protocol should mean a decent gap between people so this can never happen. Seems two guides in group which really makes you question how many people should be allowed with a guide, I would suggest 7 is really stretch on what is a manageable group size, can you manage someone 350m away?

Only way this makes sense are if 17 people in several non related groups were skinning up a slope and whole thing went. Have been skinning up with a guide before where he triggered a small slide that tickled one of the group. We had 50m+ vertical + horizontal separation between us so was non event and we abandoned the plan. We knew we were a little late and slope was wet spring snow. This seems to have been such a big group that they had to abandon normal protocol.

Re:Austrian Avalanche

Sat, 6 Feb 2016 20:20:57 GMT

It's reported as being 2km wide and 5 metres deep by ORF. 2 separate groups.

Re:Austrian Avalanche

Sat, 6 Feb 2016 21:35:48 GMT

5 dead and 2 injured, they were taking part in a "Freeride Camp". Prior to setting off from the Lizumer Hutte the hut guardian warned them several times about the avalanche danger. This was one of 18 avalanches in Tyrol today, several skiers were caught (the exact number is not known) fortunately there were no other fatalities.

http://www.krone.at/Oesterreich/Fuenf_Tote_bei_Lawinenabgang_in_Tirol-17_Verschuettete-Story-494786

Re:Austrian Avalanche

Sat, 6 Feb 2016 22:17:34 GMT

2km wide (which seems almost definitely a reporting mistake perhaps 200m) and 5m deep tells you everything you need to know, wind slab and terrain trap. Would be interesting to understand the psychology of the group given they were seemingly on a freeride course. Certainly does not make the job of a guide any easier when most likely a very competent ski group arrives for weekend with almost certainly expectations of being taken on terrain that they would not tackle alone. Whilst you pay a guide in part for his/her decision making ability, you as individuals certainly have a role to play in dynamics of decision making. I know I am somewhat guilty of only wanting to use guides for steep terrain, although this is perhaps mitigated by the fact that am just as happy to mix climb.

Clearly as a group or 2 groups complete decision making failure which hopefully everyone can learn from. Am sure one learning is that guides are not insurance for weather or snow conditions. You pay your money and take your chance when you book potentially weeks or months in advance. This unfortunately means a days piste skiing or messing about practicing avalanche or crevasse rescue might be the best option vs. hunting powder as you initially envisaged.

Re:Austrian Avalanche

Sat, 6 Feb 2016 23:09:12 GMT

"Lawine war gewaltig"

"Die Lawine in der Wattener Lizum war gewaltig, und sie loste parallel dazu weitere grobere Schneebretter in der Umgebung aus", so Patrick Nairz vom Lawinenwarndienst Tirol. Demnach war der Lawinenkegel zwei Kilometer breit und funf Meter hoch.

"Avalanche was huge"

"The avalanche at Wattener Lizum was huge, and it triggered several other large slab avalanches," said Patrick Nairz from the Tyrolean avalanche warning service. The resulting avalanche deposit was two kilometres wide and five metres high.

http://lawinenwarndienst.blogspot.ch/2016/02/lawinenabgang-unterhalb-des-geiers.html

These guys don't make this stuff up!

Guides usually have liability insurance. It's usually organised via the guides association, the Tyrolean guides policy covers them for Euro 8 million, providing they aren't found to have been negligent. http://www.bergfuehrer.at/tirol/aktuelles/polizze_haftpflichtversicherung.php?navanchor=2110015

As the people involved in this accident were from the Czech Republic they might well have employed Czech guides, in which case their insurance cover probably won't be as high.

Your right about the problems of booking trips well in advance and the weather not playing ball. There are lots or instances of pre-booked trips taking place in sub optimal conditions, if the guide cancels he doesn't get paid.

Re:Austrian Avalanche

Sun, 7 Feb 2016 07:34:42 GMT

Thanks for the color (big!) same story though. Effectively everything triggered off single aspect which had been wind loaded. Warming weather, natural Avalanche activity in area, terrain trap.

My point about insurance was that a guide is not a miracle maker. They can only take you to best place conditions and group ability allow. Which places a lot of pressure in their decision making depending on group dynamics. I have spent days skiing powder on piste in St Gervais with guide, Val Ferret ski de fond track, which you could argue is a waste of money. Definitely the best options for the days but people don't always have same logic. Given people seem to have felt strong enough to challenge both groups you just wonder. Will be interesting if local guides to area.

Re:Austrian Avalanche

Sun, 7 Feb 2016 16:34:13 GMT

Patrick Nairz has now posted a detailed analysis of the avalanche on the Tyrolean avalanche warning service blog http://lawinenwarndienst.blogspot.ch/2016/02/detailanalyse-des-lawinenunfalls.html

A total of 20 people were involved, a party of 12 divided into 2 groups of 6 and a group of 8, the first 2 groups completed the tour without problems and had assembled at the point marked by the red circle on the 6th photo. The group of 8 were at the point marked by the red x when the avalanche happened, 4 of the dead were swept into the black ellipse and the 5th was found at the point marked by the black cross.

A snowpack analysis including stability test confirmed the known problem of a ground-level weak layer. It is to be found on shady slopes above about 2300m throughout the region and no improvement is in sight.

The nationality of the guides hasn't been confirmed yet as the Alpine police are still interviewing the survivors.