Latest posts for the topic "Offpiste skiing"

Offpiste skiing

Fri, 8 Jan 2016 19:25:29 GMT

The new snow seems to of turned everyone into a potential powder hound. Have been out a few days this year (conditions are not yet great) but it did make me sort out my equipment. So what gear do you really need to seek some adventure. Here is my list, would be interested to know what other feel is necessary. Fits (just) into a 30L rucksack although 35L would be better.

Ski: Accessories
I think there is a decent argument that anyone skiing offpiste should consider having touring bindings and skins. Just seems a big assumption that you would never need to help someone above in event of injury, avalanche, lost ski etc.
1 x Skins
1 x Ski crampons

Clothing: Additional in rucksack
1 x extra gloves
1 x running hat
1 x down type jacket
1 x buff
1 x goggles (in event of face plant)

Avalanche Equipment:
1 x transceiver (spare batteries and greater than 50% charge on installed batteries)
1 x probe and shovel

Glacier Gear / mountaineering: As required
1 x ice axe
1 x crampons (Midi ridge or climbing at end of skin)
1 x belay device (only if abseil planned)
1 x single rope 60m (There seems to be a trend towards people taking 30m randonee ropes. My concern with these is the limited about of working rope if someone fall into a hole whilst roped up. Plus they are nearly always so thin that prusik loops are very skiddy on them.
2 x ice screw
2 x prusik with locking carabiner
1 x micro traction + locking carabiner
1 x harness + daisy chain or sling with locking carabiner (to be clipped high on backpack)

All of that should really be on anyone planning on skiing off the two big Chamonix lifts (GM and the Midi). From a pure cost perspective is easy to see why people are often unprepared but am not sure which part you should be leaving behind.

Re:Offpiste skiing

Mon, 11 Jan 2016 21:25:14 GMT

Interesting - that seems like a lot of kit, but it must depend on how far you're going to be from lifts and / or civilization and if you're going into glaciated terrain? Probably fair enough for the Grands Montets and La Grave, but otherwise that's a fair bit of kit to carry all day.

For me it's a pretty small subset of your kit :-

- spare gloves.
- buff.
- extra fleece layer if cold.
- foil survival blanket (so light and cheap it's daft not to have one).
- avi kit (T/P/S).
- phone and whistle, small water bottle and emergency chocolate... 8)

Fair point about skinning back up to assist a casualty but if they're that far above you, it may be more prudent (thinking about both speed AND limiting your own exposure to danger) to make yourself safe and focus on getting a heli or the piste-patrol in from above.

Just MHO, but kit to suit the route.

Re:Offpiste skiing

Mon, 11 Jan 2016 21:55:30 GMT

Does Offpiste have the same meaning as Back-country in N. America? Piste and off-piste are not common terms here, but I always thought offpiste meant an in-bounds area managed for avalanche but not groomed where as back-country is a wilderness area..

Re:Offpiste skiing

Mon, 11 Jan 2016 22:12:36 GMT

CanadianSkier wrote:Piste and off-piste are not common terms here

In Europe we don't have the "inbounds" idea; generally speaking, "off-piste" is neither patrolled or avalanche-controlled - it's very much "ski at your own risk" as soon as you step outside the marked limit of a piste (trail).

It is a little more complex, in that some ski resorts do have "freeride areas" (pretty much equivalent to your "inbounds" off-piste) that are controlled. Many resorts also have a few "un-pisted" runs which are both marked and controlled (just not piste-bashed), and others have "itineraries"... vaguely signed routes that may or may not be controlled depending on the resort...

Re:Offpiste skiing

Mon, 11 Jan 2016 22:33:15 GMT

Ranchero's kit seems like a lot to carry to get some fresh turns, but prudent I suppose if that is the environment you are in. Can you hire a Sherpa?

I'm curious to hear what the others have to day.

Re:Offpiste skiing

Mon, 11 Jan 2016 23:32:00 GMT

Definitely the glacial kit that does it. But with a lot of skiing here in Cham being on them you have no choice but to carry. Yes we have an the amazing PGHM to help and they should always be your first call but you also need to be able to stabilize a situation, if someone is in a hole get them onto a rope and some sort of anchor, ideally a screw. As well as being conscious that bad weather means you could be alone.
Midi ridge requires crampons even once roped, which leaves you the ice axe. Useful tool for making belays in event of crevasse rescue (even if skis as the anchor) and required for uphill of some itinerary.
This is where people can have some problems in Chamonix. E.g. Valle Blanche has a reputation of being an intermediate run. Yes one version is very mello but you are at 3800m on glacial terrain. My strong belief is that every skier should do a VB at some point. Only a cheap flight and transfer away. If you don't have the above then simply you need a guide who will have.
Of course you tailor depending on your plans but always good to have an excuse for being in the back seat. Plus what else is there to argue over if you don't have a rope to carry within your group.

Re:Offpiste skiing

Mon, 11 Jan 2016 23:34:53 GMT

I will post some pictures of holes to convince you about the glacial gear.

Re:Offpiste skiing

Tue, 12 Jan 2016 10:03:21 GMT

With respect, all that seems way too much for your average holiday skier to think about when venturing off piste

Re:Offpiste skiing

Tue, 12 Jan 2016 12:39:42 GMT

Would completely agree if we are taking about lift accessed skiing. Am just pointing out within 20min of a coffee shop, you can take a lift to serious terrain where you should really be prepared. Zero skinning or mountaineering involved to get you into areas where is outside the remit of pisteurs to assist. Too many people want to delegate their safety to others which as we have recently seen is frequently too late. Some great courses out there for introduction to ski touring, Avalanche awareness etc.

Re:Offpiste skiing

Wed, 13 Jan 2016 11:45:28 GMT

Tony_H wrote:With respect, all that seems way too much for your average holiday skier to think about when venturing off piste

With respect, Tony, anyone venturing off piste should be thinking about this stuff. Even if they think about it and make an informed decision that the risks are so low that they don't need any kit, or (hopefully) that they should at least have the essentials. The "holy trinity" of avi kit, and a half day getting an intro to off-piste, will probably cost you less than your GoPro.

The avalanche doesn't care how average you are; it'll kill you just as dead.

Seriously, have fun but take care...

Re:Offpiste skiing

Wed, 13 Jan 2016 12:53:17 GMT

I don't really do "off-piste" but only because my knees are too old :oops:. The rest of me is much younger than my knees for some strange reason:lol:. However, I will occasionally head into fresh snow on the fringes of the marked piste or take on the odd "ski-route" if conditions seem reasonable. Like most recreational skiers, I do this casually without any avi, shovels, probes or any other avalanche equipment. I suppose I work on the assumption that avalanches won't happen on such slopes. This is probably true in nearly all cases but you only need to be wrong once :!:.

Certainly, if I was thinking about going "properly" off piste, I would only do so with a guide and would expect that they would provide the basic essential equipment, as well as keeping me to areas that are reasonably safe. Venturing out without knowing the area and having proper equipment is bordering on reckless.

Re:Offpiste skiing

Wed, 13 Jan 2016 13:24:27 GMT

I've sort of made a distinction in my head between off-piste and powder skiing.

As far as I can remember the last time I skied what I would class as "off-piste" was in 2012 in L2A with an instructor. This was well away from marked pistes, I had no idea where I was going, wouldn't have had a clue how to get out on my own and relied on the instructor for the route and for avoiding danger. A bit of walking was involved!

I have been lucky enough to ski on fresh powder several times since. On marked pistes before skied out or bashed, on marked pistes denoted as nature rides and from "here to there" between pistes or down the side of marked runs.

I'm not talking about any pedantic definition of off-piste for insurance purposes - that's a different question and my insurance covers all off-piste.

I suppose in my head it is about would I ski this alone or be happy for others to follow me or is this somewhere where I want a real expert with me? I am pretty cautious and do tend to go back to places I know well and am able to avoid known danger points - in Tignes for example. Or the Courchevel Valley, far more likely to hit a bit of technical off-piste here than over in Meribel as I know it better.

Anyway - thinking about whether what I am proposing to do is off-piste or powder works for me to keep me safe! (so far :) )

Re:Offpiste skiing

Wed, 13 Jan 2016 15:07:17 GMT

Having all of the suggested equipment with you is all very well, but how many skiers actually know how to use belays, carabiners, crampons ropes etc, and even more so, could do so in difficult and threatening situations ? This sounds more like really serious kit for really serious wildnerness exploring. Way beyond anything I would think of trying !

Re:Offpiste skiing

Wed, 13 Jan 2016 16:06:46 GMT

I think it may come down to the kind of experience you want out of your ski trip. Is it the "Ranchero experience"? The full on "balls to the wall" ready for anything adventure? Is it ski piste all day , but more look forward to the pizza, beer and Hot tub later?

Probably somewhere in between.

The Best comparison of "off-piste" in my part of the world is back-country. typical quiver consists of touring equipment, Avi gear, first aid stuff and overnight kit. But not typically the glacier/mountaineering gear.

I asked myself, to plan a vacation that used all of Ranchero's stuff, where would I have to go. What would I spend? Heli trip to the Yukon or Alaska came to mind. But If I'm going to spend that kind of money, I can go anywhere, Europe, New Zealand, Argentina....

That made me wonder what you guys in U.K. spend on an average Ski trip. I bet it can be a lot. What do you consider good value for your money?

What I have been able understand from these posts is that it is difficult to get a "powder experience" from the places you tend to go without the effort of hiring a guide and equipment.

The resorts closest to me, within a 5 or 6 hour driving radius from my home Castle Mountain Resort, Fernie, Sunshine, Lake Louise, Kicking Horse, Whitefish and a few more. These areas all have access to back-country (off-piste, the topic of this thread). However the ability to have all the equipment let alone the skill to use the equipment or even to ski the terrain is quite honestly beyond most people.

All of the resorts I listed, all offer "Natural terrain". lots of it! Admin called it "freeride terrain" Let's define natural terrain as challenging areas on a mountain that are never touched by grooming equipment, but exist within an area that is controlled for avalanches, accessible by a lift, and leads back down to the main ski area. You can ski powder all day long without the need for any avi gear whatsoever. In fact, the ski areas listed, the groomed trails may only account for 10% to 40% of the skiable terrain.

So, for me, my vacation is about skiing, eating, friends, beer, lots of runs in challenging natural terrain and a hot tub at the end of the day. A groomed run can be nothing more than a necessary evil to get back to the lift. The best of both worlds I think.

I think in a true Off-piste experience, the journey is the destination.

To put together the question of "what do you typically spend on a ski vacation?" with "What do you really want, off-piste or natural terrain?" If your goal is to get fresh turns in a safe non-groomed (hopefully but not always, powder) environment, isn't more about planning and the destination?

Re:Offpiste skiing

Wed, 13 Jan 2016 16:32:40 GMT

Lift served off-piste doesn't require touring bindings or skins. I won't tour when we have tons of snow nearby, seems like a waste of effort, and when we tour I check the route first to see if crampons are needed to avoid carrying extra weight and bulk. Same with harness and carabiners. It might look cool, but most of the time totally unnecessary. Probably the main reason I prefer Verbier to Chamonix is that there is no need for any "jewelry" to access some great terrain. So, my regular off-piste skiing kit includes an airbag with a standard avy kit, Swiss army knife, sunglasses and an extra layer; works well. My airbag is 18L and for daily skiing it's enough and fits everything I need. When touring I use a 26L backpack and leave airbag at home to save on weight.

Re:Offpiste skiing

Wed, 13 Jan 2016 16:46:44 GMT

Wanderer wrote:I don't really do "off-piste" but only because my knees are too old :oops:. The rest of me is much younger than my knees for some strange reason:lol:. However, I will occasionally head into fresh snow on the fringes of the marked piste or take on the odd "ski-route" if conditions seem reasonable. Like most recreational skiers, I do this casually without any avi, shovels, probes or any other avalanche equipment. I suppose I work on the assumption that avalanches won't happen on such slopes. This is probably true in nearly all cases but you only need to be wrong once :!:.

When skiing itineraries and not carrying any kit it's important to remember that controlled area (resorts often claim they don't control itineraries though at least some control is done) is 30m each side of the markers, when the total area can be much wider, so when you think you are skiing an itinerary in fact you might be off-piste. So pay attention and not just for insurance.
Certainly, if I was thinking about going "properly" off piste, I would only do so with a guide and would expect that they would provide the basic essential equipment, as well as keeping me to areas that are reasonably safe. Venturing out without knowing the area and having proper equipment is bordering on reckless.

Re:Offpiste skiing

Wed, 13 Jan 2016 17:01:14 GMT

The thing with using the guide is that if something happens to the guide you are screwed. So knowing how to use avy kit and how to respond in case of an avalanche is extremely important in case you need to find and dig out the guide. He would also carry a radio on him which you will need to get help as often there is no mobile reception off-piste or iPhone will die on you due to cold exposure if you try to make a call. It actually makes sense to have a simple mobile phone for skiing as they are more reliable. Still won't help in case of no reception.

Re:Offpiste skiing

Wed, 13 Jan 2016 17:04:26 GMT

Sounds as though CanadianSkier needs to come to europe and play with some of you guys. I'll watch from a suitable building that serves beer!!

Re:Offpiste skiing

Wed, 13 Jan 2016 17:38:09 GMT

Sounds like J2ski should sponsor a VB weekend. Am not taking about extreme skiing here, jumping off a lift onto glacier.

I assume everyone is following unfolding tragedy in Alps :-(. No transceiver = needle in haystack, recovery mission.

Re:Offpiste skiing

Tue, 19 Jan 2016 08:06:14 GMT

Seems a pretty logical amount of gear. Radio is an interesting one, as we all take phone coverage as a given these days which is obviously not the case. Am sure is not cheap though.

http://www.epictv.com/media/podcast/what-to-pack-when-youre-going-into-the-backcountry-%7C-presented-by-bmc-insurance/604142

Re:Offpiste skiing

Tue, 19 Jan 2016 11:55:30 GMT

There are still a few areas in your neck of the woods without mobile phone reception http://mobile.free.fr/couverture/ If you are in one of these areas and need to contact the rescue service you can use the emergency radio channel (161.300 MHz) http://www.sdis74.fr/datas/wysiwyg/Alerte-secourisme/CanalEanglais.pdf the radios cost about CHF 300 http://www.gianora-hsu.ch/rega.html?lang=en