Latest posts for the topic "Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin"

Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Mon, 15 Dec 2014 15:53:34 GMT

I am looking to buy some snow chains for my first self-drive :shock: ski trip to France ... just come across the Michelin 'Easy Grip' Composite snow chain.

Sellers claim much quicker to put on (than traditional chains). They also seem to claim that they are "approved" for French mountain use.

Anyone had good/bad/any experience with them?

http://www.viamichelin.fr/web/Reportage?id=eca021798c2c6ee3bad30e396e4593d3

Re:Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Mon, 15 Dec 2014 17:51:11 GMT

I have a set and they are certainly very easy to put on. An earlier thread on another forum fed back that while they are fine as a rare, one-off backup for winter tyres (e.g. in deep snow or ice) but not as a substitute. We have a 'Winter Tyres' thread running most years, with the usual set of arguments. I'll get my own view in first: given that winter tyres work much better anyway in temperatures below 7oC (common for some months in the UK if you're a commuting driver), doing an Alpine drive is perhaps the thing that will swing you towards getting a set. Also, chains are hopeless in mixed tarmac and slush/snow conditions - proably a 1-in-4 chance of this happening in a typical drive.

Cue the usual protracted "I've driven to the Alps every year since 1878 and I've never needed them...." / "90% of Alpine drivers are on winter tyres - you won't realise the huge difference 'till you're in the ditch." etc. etc.

Re:Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Mon, 15 Dec 2014 21:12:18 GMT

The TCS carried out some tests on them a few years ago http://www.tcs.ch/fr/assets/tous-les-tests/pneus/5033_02_infotechTCS_Test-Chaines-Neige-2011_fr.pdf they seem to be OK, good grip on snow, not so good on ice and as you might expect not very durable. The RUD Hybrid looks a better bet if you want something that's easy to put on and will last more than a few km in mixed snow / tarmac conditions.

Re:Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Mon, 15 Dec 2014 21:55:36 GMT

Thanks Msej449 . Good to hear that they're easy to fit. Yes, I'd read lots of the opposing views on winter tyres - but as 'chains' are not optional, the tyre discussion is somewhat secondary to me at the moment.

SwingBeep, thanks too. Great comparison table. The RUDs do look as easy to fit as the Michelins and more durable...so good recommendation :thumbup: ...but unfortunately they're twice the price for my wheels. :!:

Probably go with the cheaper option - this might be my one & only drive-ski. [half-term; two kids; self catering - :shock: - what could possibly go wrong]

Re:Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Mon, 15 Dec 2014 22:30:41 GMT

Having lived in the alps last season and doing the shopping run down the mountain I only ever used a set of chains once because the snow tyres on the van were so effective, I was truly amazed the difference they made have driven one of the other vans without winter tyres. So if you have good quality snow tryes you more than likely won't use any chains you buy. I have invested in a all season tyre Goodyear vector 4 which tested as good a snow tyre but doesn't loss the grip or wear at higher temperatures like a snow tyre.

Re:Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Tue, 16 Dec 2014 00:27:34 GMT

Be careful of terminology M&S, Winter, Snow are three different tyres.

Not certain, but I think Winter tyres are the European norm, although in the UK I fit M&S, and they are very effective on snow, even on steeps.

Re:Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Tue, 16 Dec 2014 14:46:04 GMT

MattSki_score wrote:......So if you have good quality snow tryes you more than likely won't use any chains you buy.....

....perhaps, but that's 'beside the point' as I still need to buy 'chains' anyway. I'm not going to spend GBP500+ on winter tyres, only to be stopped from driving into resort because I've not got any chains.

'Chains' compulsory, winter tyres optional according to the French law (as I understand), right?

Re:Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Tue, 16 Dec 2014 17:05:13 GMT

I agree with other comments on this thread. I have driven with chains and last year bought good quality snow tyres. No compition snow tyres are great to drive on and no fixing snow chains at the side of the road. Also in some countries you must have snow tyres or risk a heavy fine. This law will be I forced in Italy this year.
My advise would be either but a set of snow tyres and have them fitted to your exciting rims or as I did buy a set of metal rIms and have snow tyres fitted to these, then it is easy to change back when not needed.

Re:Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Tue, 16 Dec 2014 17:35:34 GMT

Dave Mac wrote:Be careful of terminology M&S, Winter, Snow are three different tyres.

Not certain, but I think Winter tyres are the European norm, although in the UK I fit M&S, and they are very effective on snow, even on steeps.

I have talked to my local tyre supplier (in the French Alps) and he says that there are only two main types of tyres, Summer (over 7oC) and Winter (under 7oC).
He says "snow tyres" is a bit misleading as it leads people to believe that they are only for snowy conditions, rather than cold conditions.
The M+S designation is also a bit misleading as it stands for Mud and Snow.
All Winter tyres come with the snowflake symbol indicating they are good below 7oC but not all M+S tyres do.
This means they (the M+S without the snowflake) are for summer muddy conditions and not cold weather conditions.
This can lead to some odd descriptions, as in: "I have just fitted my summer mud and snow tyres!"

Re:Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Tue, 16 Dec 2014 21:02:07 GMT

I was being asked so often about this by colleagues and relatives that I wrote some thoughts up as follows:

The scenario ….

You're driving along a French road on the way to skiing in the Alps. Outside, the temperature is around 0oC to -2oC and the skies are grey. "We're fine - the snow chains are in the boot, so we're prepared. And we're front-wheel drive anyway." you say.
But you are already at a disadvantage against the French and German cars around you. They have their winter tyres on and you're on the summer tyres fitted as standard to all British cars. This means that when you brake, you'll take 20%-25% more distance before you come to a stop, even on tarmac. Now it starts to snow and after a while you're driving through patches where you're alternating between tarmac and snow. But you can't stop easily and anyway, the chains aren't suited to this. "If it gets heavier, I'll put the chains on - but no one else is, so let's see. I can't keep putting them on and taking them off."
The car starts to slide a bit on the snowy patches and you slow down to compensate, but everyone else seems to be coping fine. That 25% difference in stopping distance is now more like x2-x3 but it's not obvious. And there's a queue building up behind you. "Can't these people see it's snowing?" In fact they can, and since this is a regular winter situation, that's why they have their winter tyres on. They don't need to slow down until the conditions are much worse. And it looks like they're behind a typical English driver who seems to think that having chains solves everything.
Snow now covers the road, but it's not that deep and you're debating whether to stop and put the chains on when you approach a corner and slight incline. Each car ahead happily takes the corner at 50Kms/hr but when you do the car slides alarmingly. You just about keep it on the road but halfway up the incline (it can hardly be called a hill) you gently glide to a halt, skewed slightly into oncoming traffic, the wheels spinning. Further back in the queue, another English car coasts gracefully into the rear of a French delivery van and at the corner, a similarly unprepared young Dutch driver pitches quietly into the ditch. Your chains are still in the boot.

Q&A

Question: What are the ideal wheels in winter conditions?
Answer: Narrower and smaller-diameter wheels, with winter tyres to match and chains for the worst-case conditions.

Question: Is a 4x4 best for snow?
Answer: I'd rather be in a Ford Ka with winter tyres then a BMW X5 with summer tyres. The Ka will be able to negotiate conditions that the X5 can't cope with.

Question: What about just having chains?
Answer: Better than nothing, but not as good as having winter tyres and chains. While the locals will be driving round as normal on snow with winter tyres and no chains, you'll be sliding-round getting stuck, or worse, won't make that corner they have easily driven round. And in mixed tarmac/snow conditions you can't be taking your chains on/off all the time.

Question: If I have winter tyres, do I still need chains?
Answer: Yes! For deep snow, steep inclines and ice, you will still need chains.

Question: Do all four tyres need to be winter ones?
Answer: Yes. Don't mix winter and summer tyres.

In Alpine areas, and many parts of mainland Europe, the norm is to swap to winter tyres in winter. Chains are a last resort for short periods where the conditions are just too difficult for winter tyres alone. Where you get mixed tarmac and snow, winter tyres also have the advantage.

Tyres

Winter tyres are designed to operate at lower temperatures. They begin to perform better than standard tyres at temperatures below around 7˚C. They offer up to 30% shorter stopping distances on tarmac - the compounds make for better adhesion at lower temperatures. The tread design will also provide much better traction in the slush and snow:

My winter wheels and tyres are 10mm narrower then the summer ones. This is so that when chains are fitted, they don't foul the suspension, brake, drive or steering bits on the inside of the wheel arch.

The premier manufacturers of winter tyres are Michelin, Pirelli, Vredestein and Continental, all of whom have a range of winter tyres for different types of vehicles and extremity of conditions. Details are available on their websites, which you should use to discover your local specialised dealer for winter tyre advice and fitting.

In theory, of course, fitting winter tyres doesn't cost you any more overall, as you prolong the life of the summer tyres by a corresponding length of time. In reality, you have to pay for switching them over every spring and autumn plus the up-front cost of the tyres themselves.

If you're lucky, you may have suitable wheels already fitted. In which case you can just get the tyre dealer to fit winter tyres and swap them each autumn and spring. This is the case on our little Peugeot 206. However, for my Audi A3, I've had to buy a separate set of winter wheels that are 10mm narrower than the summer ones fitted as standard as chains just wont fit the bigger wheels.

Studded tyres are only used in Nordic countries where you are driving permanently on snow and ice throughout the winter. They're not relevant for UK or Alpine driving.

Wheels

Look at the Owner's Handbook and you will find that in many cases, it explicitly excludes the wheels fitted to your car from being capable of taking chains. Take a look and see, or ask your dealer.

To check for yourself, you'll need to find (a) the tyre size and (b) the wheel size.

First, look at the tyre wall and record the specification numbers e.g. 225/45 Y 18 with the last digits [18] being the wheel diameter in inches, and the first digits [225] being the width in mm. Here are the details for my car:

Wheel: '7.5Jx18' - Tyre: '225/40-Y-18' = 225mm x18" - Summer
Wheel: '7Jx17' - Tyre: '215/45-Y-17' = 215mm x17" - Winter

The Owner's Manual may state the wheel size using the letter 'J' 'e.g. '7.5J x18' above means it's 7.5" wide and 18 inches in diameter. The winter wheels are 7Jx17 i.e. 7" wide and 17" diameter.

The 18" wheels that are standard on my A3 are not certified to carry chains - it's unlikely that there's enough space (between tyre and interior gubbins) to accommodate them. So my winter tyres are on smaller 17" wheels which carry 215 tyres - 10mm narrower. This provides the extra space taken up when the chains are fitted.

On our Peugeot 206, however, the standard wheels it carries are certified for chains, and so we only swap tyres round. We use the same wheels summer and winter, and alternate between winter and summer tyres.

Chains

The main problem with chains is that when you fit them, the bits of the chain that wrap around the inner side of the wheel can foul the suspension or steering.

On my A3 with standard (summer) wheels and tyres, there's about 30mm of free space between the tyre and the bodywork, suspension etc. Even the thinnest chains need 10mm or so of free space, and cheaper ones may need up to 25mm. If you have bigger wheels on your car, then it may be that there isn't enough free space for chains to be used safely.

Beware chain retailers who either don't mention this problem or say "It should be OK." or "Try them out first." Clearly, you can't really try them out for real, and anyway, what if they do cause some damage? Remember, the issue isn't with the thickness of the chains as such, it's whether there's enough room behind the driven wheel/tyre - especially if its front-wheel-drive. In most cases, retailers haven't got a clue. Chains that seem to fit when you "try them out" on your drive in the summer may cause damage when you're driving round a hairpin bend, fully-loaded, with four passengers and a roofbox. Or perhaps they don't, and you then have to garage the car for repairs ☹ Great.

Look in your Owner's Manual and see if your wheels are certified to carry chains. For example, my A3 can carry 16", 17" or 18" wheels, with the latter not certified to carry chains.

There are lots of different chains designs and manufacturers. I use Michelin 'Easygrip' (see Michelin.co.uk) on our home Peugeot because they are relatively easy to fit; are relatively thin (<10mm); and don't need re-tightening after initial fitting. However, they are not really for prolonged use - more to get you out of a tight spot when your winter tyres can't cope. On the other car that goes down to the Alps, we carry conventional metal chains, which are better if you have to drive for any distance (although you then have the clearance problem, obviously).

Be Prepared: Fitting chains outdoors, in the snow, at night can be a nightmare. It will help if you carry a mat to kneel on, torch and gloves and have them to hand along with the chains. Try fitting them at home first. If it snows at home, it may be worth trying them out.

Incidental Advice

Screenwash: If you're going on a long journey in winter, especially down to the Alps, completely empty the reservoir, pipes and nozzles of any diluted screenwash and refill with 100% concentrate. Otherwise the pipes and nozzles will freeze.

Boots: Also have a spare pair of boots to hand when driving, so you can go out in the snow and change back into dry driving shoes when you return.

And as mentioned above, have a torch, a mat and gloves handy as well - not buried somewhere under all the luggage. And if it snows at home, take the opportunity to try chains out under more benign conditions

Re:Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Tue, 16 Dec 2014 21:31:35 GMT

Thank you msej449, excellent post :D

For what it's worth, I have been fitting winter wheels/tyres to my 4 wheel drive Audi for the past 4 years here in the UK. It is amazing how often you notice the difference, even in the outer parts of London where I live.

The biggest no-brainer for me is that fact that they simply out perform "summer" tyres in all safety departments once the temperature drops low enough.

Re:Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Wed, 17 Dec 2014 19:36:23 GMT

can I join the discussion, you all seem experienced in driving in serious snow. We have just booked a late bargain for Les Gets from the 28th. we have two 4 x 4 which we are driving down. As we are not planning driving around during the stay, just getting to the town and parking up should we be investing in chains or will the main route in and out be clear and our cars capable?

Re:Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Wed, 17 Dec 2014 20:28:20 GMT

MumofAurelia wrote:we have two 4 x 4 which we are driving down.

Hi "Mum" and welcome to J2Ski...

Please read Msje's excellent post above but, to cut a long story short you will need chains and/or (optionally) winter tyres to be sure of getting into resort.

Current indications are that the Northern Alps will be cold and snowy in the last week of December so you should assume that the roads up (and possibly even the Autoroute into The Alps) may well be snow covered. If that's the case, then 4WD will be no help if your wheels aren't gripping (nothing amuses Les Gendarmes more than a Brit-plated X5/Q7/Cayenne on summer tyres... in a ditch - we see them every year; don't let it be you).

So, yes, you should invest in chains - get a decent set (they can be bought in UK) and learn how to fit them before you leave. Good quality chains will just about last forever.

And do seriously consider winter tyres - the extra cost is marginal over their lifetime and they will make your winter driving so much easier/safer.

HTH, enjoy and stay safe!

Re:Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Wed, 17 Dec 2014 20:31:13 GMT

thank you, I'm off to investigate!

Re:Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Thu, 18 Dec 2014 11:28:13 GMT

If you decide to buy a set of winter tyres make sure they are marked with the Three Peak Mountain Snow Flake (3PMSF ) pictogram as well as the M+S mark.

All winter tyres carry the M+S mark on the sidewall, but all tyres carrying this mark are not winter tyres. The M+S mark can also be applied to tyres manufactured using a 'summer' compound, it can also be found on all-season tyres and on tyres for 4X4s. It is just a manufacturer's statement that the tread and the materials used were designed to provide better performance in mud and snow than standard tyres. Tyres carrying the 3PMSF mark have to meet specified requirements. http://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-article/winter-tyres-don-t-rely-on-the-m-s-mark

This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbxQ_ymaDSE illustrates the increase in stopping distance of a Jeep Grand Cherokee (white car) fitted with winter (3PMSF) tyres and one fitted with M+S tyres, the one fitted with M+S tyres took an extra 80 metres to stop!

This is why you will be held to be at least partially to blame if you are involved in an accident in Switzerland during the winter if your car is not fitted with proper winter tyres.

Andid, I'm almost certain that the law in Italy says that you can either fit winter tyres or carry snow chains. In Aosta you either have to use winter tyres or carry chains between 15th November and 15th April or you could be fined 80 to 318 euro. If you continue to drive on winter tyres that have a speed rating less than that specified for the car (common practice along with fitting narrower higher profile tyres) after 15th May you can be fined between 419 and 1682 euro http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatico_invernale

Re:Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Thu, 18 Dec 2014 17:59:15 GMT

I have read this threat with much interest and learned a few things, thanks. Especially Msej449, great post.

I live in Canada very close to the Rockies, I can see them today from my office window. I have driven in the most heinous conditions imaginable and can endorse what has been said here. The comments become even more meaningful when the road is snow/ice covered, wind is blowing, windchill is in the -30s, the next town is 50km away, and your only traveling 30 kph. That exact situation will happen to be 10+ times this winter. Snow tyres really make a difference, not everyone has them, a set of chains in the trunk might make all the difference when it counts!!

Photos: Wheelarch, Summer vs Winter Tyre

Fri, 19 Dec 2014 03:45:39 GMT

Here are some photos to illustrate the key points. First the A3's original-equipment 'summer'

versus winter tyre for the same Audi A3

The obvious difference is that the winters have more and deeper grooves and 'sipes'. Not only do they grip snow better (actually, by trapping snow in the grooves and getting snow-on-snow traction) but also disperse water better. Not so obvious is the significantly more 'grippy' compound used which starts to make a difference below 7oC - which is useful even in a non-snowy British winter.

And here is the inside of the front wheelarch, showing the suspension and brakes alongside the inner side of the winter wheels/tyres. It's the passenger-side wheel, viewed facing the rear of the car.

Most conventional chains have a substantial, rotating element on the inner side of the wheel/tyre: Here, roughly where you see the 'Michelin' text. These are the winter wheels and tyres, which are 10mm narrower than the summer ones, and given the chains need 25mm, still leave enough space for the chain assembly to rotate as the suspension moves.

For the Peugeot 206, I'm fortunate that the narrower wheels leave plenty of space to fit chains, whether they're carrying summer or winter tyres.

Re:Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Wed, 24 Dec 2014 17:37:35 GMT

Hi again skiers from far away. I really enjoy reading this forum as it provides a totally different point of view on subjects as i would expect to get form home.

As I prepare for my 5th trip from the prairies of Western Canada into the Rockies since the beginning of December(I only live 100knm away, so it's not really that big a deal), I recall reading all the technical information posted on this forum explaining the merits of chains and winter tyres.

My trip usually starts on snow and ice covered roads, transition to bare highways and then back to covered roads once I get to the foothills, then anything goes once you hit the Rockies. My first trip started in -25c temps and the last one was +5. So I tend to get a mixture of everything.

It has occurred to me the discussion here is solving the wrong problem. The question asked is what is the best technology for my wheels in the winter. It should really be: how do I drive in winter conditions to be as safe as possible. Two different questions.

There is a saying here, Having a 4X4 just gets you twice as stuck. Here, they are usually taking about a truck, not an AWD passenger car.

So I'll put it out there. Your ability to drive in winter conditions, which comes from experience and common sense far outweighs the best tyres and gadgets used to make them grip better in winter conditions. All I have to do is watch "new Canadians" try to navigate our winters to convince me of that.

Conditions suck so far this season, but it still beats working!!!

Have fun!!

Re:Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Sat, 27 Dec 2014 08:32:00 GMT

CanadianSkier wrote:It has occurred to me the discussion here is solving the wrong problem. The question asked is what is the best technology for my wheels in the winter. It should really be: how do I drive in winter conditions to be as safe as possible. Two different questions.

I see where you're coming from (Canada - you lucky, lucky person), but...

Perhaps if you're a driving God then the technology becomes less important, but most of us aren't... 8)

You're certainly right to highlight the skills to drive in winter, but those are not easily acquired in places like the UK (particularly the South) where we might only see snow on our roads 1 winter in 3. The big fat tyres so vital for doing the school run in your X5 in British Summertime will be taking you straight to the scene of a big accident on a snowy mountain switchback...

There are two different questions ("how do I drive" and "what do I take"), but your best chance of staying safe will be knowing good answers to both.

Part of the answer to "how do I drive in winter conditions to be as safe as possible", necessarily includes knowing how best to equip your car... and chains, tyres and "composite snow chains" are all something we should be familiar with (and understand when they're appropriate / required) if we're going to be driving to the mountains.

This morning, as predicted in other forum conversations and perfectly usual and understandable, we're hearing that the Gendarmes in the Tarentaise are enforcing "Chainage Obligatoire" from the valley... if your vehicle is not properly equipped you won't (shouldn't) be going anywhere... 8)

Re:Composite 'Snow Chains' by Michelin

Sat, 27 Dec 2014 21:23:34 GMT

Canadian Skier, in many European countries, winter tyres are mandatory, it is illegal to drive without them between October 31st and March 31st.
Also, in certain conditions, the police may turn you back, should you not have chains.