Latest posts for the topic "Skiing off piste during lessons."

Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 07:09:48 GMT

Guys, opinions please.

I am currently in the PDS and taking group lessons with ESF, class 3.
This week we have been skiing mostly off piste but firmly within the resort boundaries.
Should i be concerned that the instructor has given us no safety advice and no one carries any safety equipment for off piste skiing.

I know that there are low risk areas but surely this is bad practice.

For those that that know the area yesterday we were skiing knee deep powder in the corridors to the right off the swiss wall (as you look at it).

This is my first time in such areas and although i enjoyed it there was something in my mind that was saying 'this isn't right'

Am i being silly?

Re:Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 07:11:57 GMT

Yes. Just enjoy it. It sounds like great fun.

Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 07:32:05 GMT

Snapzzz wrote:Am i being silly?

Not at all - you're right to question it; understanding why your instructor considers it safe will be informative.

It's possible (likely?) that the particular routes he took you down are made safe as they're close to a popular piste for good skiers. It might also be that those slopes are known locally to be "safe", due to frequent use packing the snow / not being exposed above or below / never having slid in living memory...

The recent warmth, followed by re-freeze and new snow should have stabilised the weak layer from early season at mid and low altitudes but it's all about the local conditions.

In short, ask him why it's safe? 8)

"If in doubt, back out" ...and if it's safe... get in and enjoy! Sounds like you are... :thumbup:

Re:Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 08:43:30 GMT

Ask the instructor why he/she considers it safe - as Adders says.
Instructors are not infallible.

Hope you enjoy the skiing.

Re:Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 08:59:32 GMT

What would be the insurance situation should there be a nasty injury - if your cover does not include off-piste?

Re:Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 09:04:17 GMT

Well one of beauties of skiing in France is that all instructors are qualified to take you offpiste and hence is something they discuss.

Right now conditions are good, warm weather did a lot of damage and lots of the high risk slopes triggered (look at all the crowns). People have then re-skied the fresh snow "inbounds", really mixing up the layers. Chances of triggering something now <30 deg and near side of piste is very low indeed. Strong foehn today before more snow will help stabilize recent snowfall. People were reporting >waist deep powder on the VB yesterday which must be pretty epic indeed.

Re:Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 09:08:39 GMT

Huwcyn wrote:What would be the insurance situation should there be a nasty injury - if your cover does not include off-piste?

Then you won't be covered, and you'll be in for a big bill. Simples as the meerkat says.

But most policies do cover off-piste with a guide/instructor and I'm sure Snapzzz has that covered.

A timely reminder for everyone to check exactly what their insurance does cover though... before you need it!

Re:Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 10:32:45 GMT

I think when you are taking the lesson you are insured in case of accident. You can ask instructor, but you won't be taken anywhere considered dangerous. You probably should ask in any case just to get better understanding of terrain and conditions.

Re:Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:21:29 GMT

In my experience, off-piste guides and instructors love to share their 'mountain knowledge' and positively welcome questions on why they deem a certain area 'safe'. It's a fascinating subject and for many skiers the start of a 'whole new ball game.'

Re:Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:45:57 GMT

I think most insurance policies that exclude off piste really mean they exclude skiing off piste without a qualified guide or instructor when you look at the small print.

If you assume that the ESF instructor knows his stuff (and presumably to qualify in France he must do) he/she will know of many areas that are technically off piste but are safe but not pisted or marked as such. These areas probably aren't at high enough risk of avalanche to merit the full safety kit that is essential for true back country off piste skiing. They can be useful to teach specific techniques or are just quiet.

Re:Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 16:14:30 GMT

The trouble I am often reading about the Qualified guides who die in avalanches ….. :(

Re:Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 17:09:21 GMT

Sorry guys, been on the slopes all day so haven't had chance to respond to any comments.

As we entered the corridor i did ask about a huge slab of snow above is as i was concerned given all the chat recently of ava risk. I am very much new to anything off piste so have no knowledge myself about what to look for but it did look risky to me.
My actually words were " Is this safe?" as i pointed at the pack. The ESF guy simply laughed and said "No, we all die today" in a sarcastic tone.

The more i think about it the more concerned i am that this really is dangerous. He should, have explained why it was safe and perhaps i should have pushed for such an explanation. What he has done is give a class off off piste newbies a sense that areas that 'look' like this are perfectly safe.

As for insurance, i am covered off piste but it won't provide a new life will it? It did make me wonder though if Ski School students should be covered under a general ESF policy a bit like learner drivers are covered by the instructors policy.

Here is the route we took. A pic paints a 1000 words.

Re:Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 17:43:43 GMT

I am glad you have raised this as I was thinking abut it during the Michael Schumacher thread - but it was pointed out it wasn't an off piste/insurance debate!

I have never been asked what level of insurance I have during a lesson when being taken off the marked piste ( even if it's only to the side which was pointed out is considered off piste).

Re:Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 18:02:00 GMT

Dids1 wrote:
I have never been asked what level of insurance I have during a lesson when being taken off the marked piste ( even if it's only to the side which was pointed out is considered off piste).

Very pertinent point - I wonder what the situation is legally?
Does ESF have any extra cover for this type of thing I wonder? Other ski schools??

Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 18:27:20 GMT

Snapzzz wrote:
Guys, opinions please.

I am currently in the PDS and taking group lessons with ESF, class 3.

Hi Snapzzz

i'm heading to La Plagne sunday and have lloked at the Class 3 ESF lessons although based on your description i wonder if it's perhaps beyond me and i should go for Class 2. What's your level of experience?

Ben

Re:Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 18:27:23 GMT

I know my opinions are seen by the majority here as 'old fashioned' but the subject of insurance seems to be becoming obsessional.
If insurance cover issues outweigh the exhilaration of skiing off piste can I suggest that skiing maybe isn't the right sport for you.
There are many 'safer' sports I could suggest.

Re:Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 18:34:41 GMT

Brucie wrote:I know my opinions are seen by the majority here as 'old fashioned' but the subject of insurance seems to be becoming obsessional.
If insurance cover issues outweigh the exhilaration of skiing off piste can I suggest that skiing maybe isn't the right sport for you.
There are many 'safer' sports I could suggest.

Kinda agree there. My insurance will get me off the mountain and to a hospital under any circumstances that i currently ski.
It won't buy me a new life, thats on my head.

Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 18:42:58 GMT

TheSkiingGolfer wrote:
Hi Snapzzz

i'm heading to La Plagne sunday and have lloked at the Class 3 ESF lessons although based on your description i wonder if it's perhaps beyond me and i should go for Class 2. What's your level of experience?

Ben

I have around 6 weeks skiing spread over 5 years.

From what i have seen here class 2 will have you confidently skiing steep reds by the end of the week with the ability to control your speed on steeper slopes and mastering sideslipping.

Class 3 will assume you are happy on ALL pisted slopes and take you to different snow conditions which generally are off piste.
We were taught powder skiing, jump turns on steeps and dealing with very narrow sections.

Having not skied for a year i went in class 2 on day one just to get my ski legs back. We were made to ski a 300m slope how we normally would and assessed. It was go left for weak class2 and right for strong class 2. I was just told not to come back, move on to level 3 or waste my time and money.

Re:Skiing off piste during lessons.

Thu, 16 Jan 2014 21:33:54 GMT

Fully qualified ski instructors are allowed to take clients off-piste for instructional purposes but they are not allowed to take people on glaciers. In order to do so they have to complete a mountain safety course as part of their training that covers:

Snow and avalanche risk assessment
Off-piste skiing technique
Equipment for touring and off piste travel i.e. skinning/snow shoeing
Map reading navigation and route selection
Objective hazards and emergency procedures
Leadership and conduct of a group in descent

There have been off-piste accidents in the past where ski instructors have been found to have been negligent, so in 2012 the Syndicat national des moniteurs du ski francais in conjunction with the local judicial authorities produced a DVD detailing their responsibilities regarding off-piste instruction, which was issued to all the ESF instructors. So your man should be fully aware of where he can and cannot safely take you.

Skiing down that couloir (we use the French term http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Couloir) accompanied by an instructor will have been a lot safer then skiing down the Swiss wall which is supposed to be one of the most dangerous pistes in the world. The "slab" you mentioned looks like a cornice http://www.fsavalanche.org/encyclopedia/cornice.htm you were right to be wary, but the location didn't look ideal for explaining to someone why the lip of the cornice wasn't going to break off and trigger an avalanche which would sweep you all to your deaths especially when he was giving a group lesson at the same.

Snapzzz wrote:
What he has done is give a class off off piste newbies a sense that areas that 'look' like this are perfectly safe.

All he has actually done is give some newbies some instruction in off-piste skiing technique in terrain that he considered safe on the day, next week he might make a different assessment.

The ESF doesn't have any relevant insurance, it doesn't need any. It is owned the Syndicat national des moniteurs du ski francais (SNMSF) one of the French ski instructor's trade associations, it simply takes the bookings and does the paperwork, but the individual ski instructors who are self employed all have liability insurance. Because of the way it's set up it doesn't have to levy VAT or pay corporate taxes which gives it a considerable advantage over the commercial ski schools.

Re:Skiing off piste during lessons.

Fri, 17 Jan 2014 12:48:48 GMT

Brucie wrote:I know my opinions are seen by the majority here as 'old fashioned' but the subject of insurance seems to be becoming obsessional.
If insurance cover issues outweigh the exhilaration of skiing off piste can I suggest that skiing maybe isn't the right sport for you.
There are many 'safer' sports I could suggest.

You might have been referring to my comment when you wrote the above.

I wasn't saying don't risk getting a ski off the side of the piste in case you aren't insured and being old fashioned myself I happen to agree with your point.
I was just musing over the insurance companies attempts at getting out of paying.
I just wouldn't have the dosh if I wasn't insured and they refused to pay.
That's all really.

Re:Skiing off piste during lessons.

Fri, 17 Jan 2014 14:33:23 GMT

SwingBeep wrote:
All he has actually done is give some newbies some instruction in off-piste skiing technique in terrain that he considered safe on the day, next week he might make a different assessment.

Thats one way of looking at it. however explaining the dangers under different conditions would have been wise. I was certainly tempted to return alone for another go the next day but decided against it as i am careful. Others may just have gone for it.