Latest posts for the topic "Offpiste advice for noobies"

Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 10:53:18 GMT

Good morning.
There has been some incredible and wonderful snowfall across Europe this past week or two and I as much as anyone is itching to get on it. Those lucky enough to be there at present must be having a great time.
However, there have been some well documented problems and it seems that people are going out to enjoy the amazing conditions but taking risks with it.
Ignoring advice and not listening to people is downright stupid in an alien environment, which is what the mountains are to pretty much all of us.

So, decent skiers like myself get to a stage where they are looking to try something new and different, and the past few seasons I have been venturing off piste. I started this in Verbier with some of the so called marked ski routes and have enjoyed some itinerary routes in St Anton and Alpe d'Huez for example. However, we have also skied on terrain which has been outside of the boundaries of the marked ski area in Zurs which was amazing and great fun, but there is a serious side to all of this as well.

No one, myself included, ever really thinks anything will happen to them. But it could, no matter what you do or how good a skier you are, s**t can happen and as we have seen recently, snow moves fast.

I'd like to consider what should be looked into for those of us looking to venture into the world of off piste skiing to keep it safe but enjoyable. I understand that rules and regulations about where you can and cant ski vary from resort to resort, area to area, country to country. However, lets say for arguments sake that you are looking to ski between pistes, or on a ski trail shown on a map, or a bowl served by a lift with open terrain. What should be considered sensible to do and take with you?

I know for serious tourers and off piste thrill seekers, theres transcievers and shovels for instance. But for us recreational skiers who are just looking to play in some fresh powder, do we need to consider all of this? And is it essential, legal, or suggested to take a guide and do it properly even if you're still learning how to ski in deep and on steeps for example, and you only want to "have a bit of a play in the freshies".

Please dont for one minute think I'm taking any of this lightly as I'm not. I have ventured into territory that would possibly invalidate my insurance without even thinking about it; the rush of seeing something spectacular that you want to ski and you are PROBABLY good enough to handle takes over at times, and those of us who cannot resist need to be advised whats right and wrong, and what should or should not be considered as sensible.

Thanks, and be safe.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 11:22:46 GMT

Totally with you TH.....
For me powder is not necessarily the same as off-piste.

Local knowledge, local knowledge and local knowledge will see you through.

I am sure there are safe areas to go and play in the powder in pretty much all resorts, but they do probably get skied out pretty quickly.

I went off-piste once last year - with an instructor but no transceivers or shovels etc. When he pointed I went "gulp" and followed. Wouldn't have gone anywhere near that area without someone like him.

I know a good few places in Courchevel where I would be happy to go a wandering, and several areas I would avoid completely - even though there are tracks....

Without local knowledge I don't think there are any really safe "pointers" to choosing where to go except 12' either side of the piste - even this may not always be safe.

An area that clearly has nothing that could drop down on it from above may have some cliffs or holes in it - or even no way out!

My best suggestion is that should you be lucky enough to be skiing when there is good powder around then bite the bullet and pay someone to take you.

Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 12:04:22 GMT

Great, can you see how it's possible to have fun in a small resort. Your descents are only limited to your technical ability :D

There are several ways to learn enough. You might enjoy a weekend course learning to look at the risk from the terrain whilst you ski off piste.
There are lots of good books available, if you want to read up 1st. It's time to start looking at the weather forecast posted up in your resort. This will give you clues about safe slopes to head for.

Skiing offpiste requires you to take responsibility for your route choices, including knowing when to turn back.

It's fun skiing between the pistes, but it IS offpiste, and you must consider buying the correct kit and learning how to use it. Snow is lovely and light until it binds together, then it becomes incredibly heavy and quite dangerous.

The nice powder stashes between the pistes have usually been left for a good reason (the terrain), so I'd consider it quite important to be properly prepared to ski an area that the lift company has skirted around, they see it in summer too!

I think (not 100%) that probe/transceiver/shovel must be carried offpiste in Italy by law. Don't quote me on that :mrgreen:

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 12:33:10 GMT

Really good post this, I ventured of Piste last year in fresh snow and loved it, but looking back I was very stupid to have done so as I was skiing alone in Sauze d'oux and was down the side of a very steep black, the resort had been very dry during the whole of January and then had a massive dump at the end.

Excitment just over took me and I was off, the visalbilty was very low and I didn't have a clue as to what I was skiing into and lauched myself off a quite a drop with out knowing, lucky for me when I landed i managed to stay on my feet and that was the end of my off piste sking, a little scared but unharmed.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 13:24:35 GMT

Good question...

Yes, if you're leaving the piste at all then you should really be thinking about this. People die under avalanches within metres of pistes and - wot bandit said - sometimes the bits between the pistes are not pistes for a reason... and they are most certainly "off piste".

There's a lot of good stuff online and in print nowadays.

For online, the Canadian Avalanche Centre is a good resource and they even have an "online avalanche course" that is a great intro to get you thinking...

http://www.avalanche.ca/cac/training/online-course

Another good intro is here http://www.avalanche.org/tutorial/tutorial.html

Definitely spend a tenner (including postage!) on Robert Bolognesi's little book "Avalanche" from Amazon in time for Xmas. It covers all the basics and is small enough to go in a jacket pocket for a quick read next time you're waiting for a plane... 8)

Pistehors is an excellent source of information and his reviews of past seasons are worth a read.

Incident reports from the authorities, and first hand accounts from survivors often illustrate the warning signals that were ignored and the human factors that contribute to avalanches. They're also good reminders of the consequences.

Read all the above, then book yourself a day out with a guide; you'll probably have a fantastic time and any decent guide will be happy to explain their choice of slopes.

Get the gear, practice with it, and take it.

And always take local advice - the lifties are often people who know the mountain well and they'll be happy to advise. Learn to recognise the flags (that's the easy bit) and look for avalanche bulletins pinned or scribbled on boards by the lifts.

...and... "If in doubt, back out".

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 13:38:19 GMT

So does this mean we shouldn't even be ski-ing between pistes without shovel, probe, and transceiver and doing the rest of the avalanche research?

The only thing I have is Recco on my ski boots, and I remember someone saying on here that it's only useful really for finding dead bodies!

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 13:39:17 GMT

Might I suggest attending something like one of the truly excellent Henry's Avalanche Talks.
Henry himself spoke clearly, simply and enthusiastically about the joys and dangers of venturing off-piste.
I was struck by some of the slides he showed that demonstrated that you can die, without too much difficulty, in the inviting areas between pistes.
His advice was just so sensible that it should be compulsory for anyone venturing off the marked track.
Try it, but do it safely with the right kit, the right advice, guidance, the right attitude to marginal weather, conditions etc. Any doubts - come back another day!

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:07:06 GMT

Or go to US resorts.

There is no off-piste within the boundaries of the resort. Any area that would be unsafe to ski is roped off, but most of the area is checked for avalanche hazards, and made safe.

Anywhere within the yellow boundary line is fair game.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:14:25 GMT

AllyG wrote:So does this mean we shouldn't even be ski-ing between pistes without shovel, probe, and transceiver and doing the rest of the avalanche research?

The only thing I have is Recco on my ski boots, and I remember someone saying on here that it's only useful really for finding dead bodies!

Who is going to dig you out?

You need a partner too, with a shovel, probe, transceiver and training.

On the subject of Recco. Many resorts are equipped with Recco scanners. However, consider that your survival window when buried is very short. How long will it be before ski patrol get the equipment and get to you?

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:54:58 GMT

Understand the risks. Avalanche newsletters is a good starting point. Know the past weather as it will give you some clue to the snow composition. Avoid wind slabs - pay attention which way the wind is blowing and where the blown snow will get deposited. Local knowledge and advice is useful. take a guide, ask him questions and listen to his explanations. read 'Snow sense'. Get safety equipment and learn how to use it. Do not expose more than one skier at a time. Plan your day and plan every descent.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 16:28:41 GMT

AllyG wrote:So does this mean we shouldn't even be ski-ing between pistes without shovel, probe, and transceiver and doing the rest of the avalanche research?

The only thing I have is Recco on my ski boots, and I remember someone saying on here that it's only useful really for finding dead bodies!

Well, strictly speaking transcievers are also the best at finding bodies. Being buried with a transceiver only guarantees (provided you will be looked and searched for in the right area)that you will be found before the snow melts. It doesn't guarantee survival.

You should put this into perspective, where are you skiing, are you visible from slopes or elswhere, if the slopes are busy or there are no people around, current weather - everything can play its role. And in general I don't think that you need a proper kit if the only "off-piste" you ever go to is these small areas of soft snow between marked runs in resorts.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 16:38:25 GMT

Without question the best place to start is to book yourself on an avalanche course. I'd say book on something which is at least two days long. Even then this will only cover the basics, although it will answer a lot of questions and help you make some more informed decisions.

Local knowledge is very important too but only as a small part of the avalanche puzzle.

It's really good to hear that you want to venture from the piste and explore more of the mountain and also that you seem keen to make sure your doing so safely.

Spending time with ski pro's and guides will also help you a great deal, helping you build that all important experience.

Happy skiing

Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 16:41:50 GMT

Tony_H wrote:Good morning.
There has been some incredible and wonderful snowfall across Europe this past week or two and I as much as anyone is itching to get on it. Those lucky enough to be there at present must be having a great time.
However, there have been some well documented problems and it seems that people are going out to enjoy the amazing conditions but taking risks with it.
Ignoring advice and not listening to people is downright stupid in an alien environment, which is what the mountains are to pretty much all of us.

So, decent skiers like myself get to a stage where they are looking to try something new and different, and the past few seasons I have been venturing off piste. I started this in Verbier with some of the so called marked ski routes and have enjoyed some itinerary routes in St Anton and Alpe d'Huez for example. However, we have also skied on terrain which has been outside of the boundaries of the marked ski area in Zurs which was amazing and great fun, but there is a serious side to all of this as well.

No one, myself included, ever really thinks anything will happen to them. But it could, no matter what you do or how good a skier you are, s**t can happen and as we have seen recently, snow moves fast.

I'd like to consider what should be looked into for those of us looking to venture into the world of off piste skiing to keep it safe but enjoyable. I understand that rules and regulations about where you can and cant ski vary from resort to resort, area to area, country to country. However, lets say for arguments sake that you are looking to ski between pistes, or on a ski trail shown on a map, or a bowl served by a lift with open terrain. What should be considered sensible to do and take with you?

I know for serious tourers and off piste thrill seekers, theres transcievers and shovels for instance. But for us recreational skiers who are just looking to play in some fresh powder, do we need to consider all of this? And is it essential, legal, or suggested to take a guide and do it properly even if you're still learning how to ski in deep and on steeps for example, and you only want to "have a bit of a play in the freshies".

Please dont for one minute think I'm taking any of this lightly as I'm not. I have ventured into territory that would possibly invalidate my insurance without even thinking about it; the rush of seeing something spectacular that you want to ski and you are PROBABLY good enough to handle takes over at times, and those of us who cannot resist need to be advised whats right and wrong, and what should or should not be considered as sensible.

Thanks, and be safe.

Do not duck the ropes with checked flags if the only off-piste you want to ski is the areas between pistes runs and they are roped. If all of a sudden one of these areas have totally untracked powder - do not rush to be 'that guy', others could have known what you don't and it's untracked for a reason. Otherwise stay visible.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 16:58:40 GMT

Off piste doesn't mean just powder, it's anything any from the pistes. Powder equals increased avalanche risk so the kit becomes essential. Experience off piste in safer, skied out conditions.
For beginners there is often no need to go off piste in powder conditions, I've skied in 3 feet of powder on blue runs on several occasions. Many hours of fun too just off the piste, bouncing along in the soft.
Like any part of skiing the way to learn is with professional instruction.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:20:38 GMT

What about skiing on a piste that has lots of fresh pow on it, surely this is just as dangerous as going off piste?

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:23:48 GMT

offshore wrote:What about skiing on a piste that has lots of fresh pow on it, surely this is just as dangerous as going off piste?

If the piste is open it is likely to be considered safe

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:30:50 GMT

I would hope so. I've had a few amazing days of powder on a piste and a few times i have thought "i wonder if an avalanche could happen here"

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:44:43 GMT

offshore wrote:What about skiing on a piste that has lots of fresh pow on it, surely this is just as dangerous as going off piste?

That's why they shut the pistes after a very heavy fall of snow sometimes. And then you can hear them blasting the snow, and sometimes the actual crash as the artificially created avalanche happens.

But very occasionally there is an avalanche on piste - presumably because someone made a mistake somewhere, or maybe because there is always an element of uncertainty about these things.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:51:16 GMT

AllyG wrote:

offshore wrote:What about skiing on a piste that has lots of fresh pow on it, surely this is just as dangerous as going off piste?

That's why they shut the pistes after a very heavy fall of snow sometimes. And then you can hear them blasting the snow, and sometimes the actual crash as the artificially created avalanche happens.

But very occasionally there is an avalanche on piste - presumably because someone made a mistake somewhere, or maybe because there is always an element of uncertainty about these things.

I have heard blasting before, and hvae come across a few closed piste's in my time, Must be for this reason!

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:58:01 GMT

offshore wrote:

AllyG wrote:

offshore wrote:What about skiing on a piste that has lots of fresh pow on it, surely this is just as dangerous as going off piste?

That's why they shut the pistes after a very heavy fall of snow sometimes. And then you can hear them blasting the snow, and sometimes the actual crash as the artificially created avalanche happens.

But very occasionally there is an avalanche on piste - presumably because someone made a mistake somewhere, or maybe because there is always an element of uncertainty about these things.

I have heard blasting before, and hvae come across a few closed piste's in my time, Must be for this reason!

A piste closure is more likely because of unsecured snow above the piste than on the piste itself. If they are blasting, they won't take a risk having a piste open below. Though I have heard of the odd occasion when an intentionally triggered slide has gone much further that predicted and it's covered a piste.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:07:21 GMT

I've just remembered theres a video on youtube of an avalanche in france, I'm sure its been put on here before but will put it up, Also i think this avalanche was to do with warm weather and takes out the Chair lift!

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:07:46 GMT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4xmerGwXmE

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:12:17 GMT

I've already been as close to an avalanche as I ever want to be again.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:34:53 GMT

andyhull wrote:I've already been as close to an avalanche as I ever want to be again.

Me too, and that was a planned avalanche, when I was part of the avalanche patrol.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:11:27 GMT

offshore wrote:What about skiing on a piste that has lots of fresh pow on it, surely this is just as dangerous as going off piste?

One of the reasons off-piste will always be more dangerous is that there are not likely to be many people in the vicinity that can raise the alarm and alert the rescuers. You are pretty much on your own. In some places you won't even get a reception and you don't need to be too far away from resort for this to happen. Can be as close as the back side of the main resort runs with ridge or top of the mountain blocking the signal. On a pow day pistes that are considered dangerous will be closed.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:27:03 GMT

This was just above Tignes Le Lac, in sight of our hotel and several of our group. A little gully which was skied out, hundreds of people must have been down there. But sunny warm weather, it went as my mate skied in, he was left standing on bare earth as a couple of feet of snow slid away. I was lower down, but still up on the ridge as the slide went past. That's as close as I want to get. If I had gone first I'd have entered below the weak point.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 20:10:06 GMT

Interesting all this.
But we've gone from someone asking for advice straight into talking about avalanches.
Whilst I'm fully aware of this being a risk, I was actually trying to ask whether having ventured off piste a number of times before is as risky as some make it out to be. And no ones answered the question about ski routes or itinerary runs.
And for some reason we have got some responses about skiing in powder on piste; this is something ANYONE can do after a dump of snow and whilst its fun and helps teach you technique, its totally not the point.

I'm aware of local avalanche risks, the flag system, and pretty much in tune with the local weather wherever I ski, and aware how different conditions can affect snow.

I've never been the guy who made the first tracks. Off piste, anyway, maybe on piste ;-)
But I'd love to. I've only ever skied where I've seen other tracks. Zurs was a great example; a group of us took a chair over a large open area which had some tracks in it after 36 hours of persistent snow, and we all sad it looked amazing. However, at first attempt some of the group changed their mind so we skied down the piste and back up the chair. This time, everyone looked at it and decided it was well within their abilities and we had an amazing half hour. However, I'm sure on reflection there were risks which we maybe never considered properly. One of those who came got a proper telling off from their other half, who was unable to join us sadly.

I have to say it was great fun and as difficult as it may have seemed to some, everyone coped very well and were buzzing at the bottom.

But should we all have had shovels and transceivers?
I really don't honestly know the answer to that, and certainly none off the other skiers we saw on that area did.

So, can anyone actually shed any definitive light on what's what?
As ally says; do we REALLY need all the kit to ski a few metres between the pistes?????

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 20:23:33 GMT

I have gone off piste with no shovels and safety equipment, but I've always had someone with me! And before i've gone, i always made sure I've checked the area as well as i can! Skiing off piste between pistes thats a tough one, im sure people will say you need all the shovels transceicers, But i do it all the time! I guess, get as much local knowledge as possible

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 21:16:14 GMT

Maybe its because I'm a girl, maybe its because I'm usually the group organiser but I have never gone off piste without
a, local guide that has come recommended.
b, transceiver/shovel/probe.
c, a quick check of the transceivers to check they are working. I have changed my mind about going last minute at this point before now when it became obvious that other parties had never seen one before let alone had a practise.
Of course I've ended up accidently off piste when visibility has been poor (Sweden, sudden blizzard went between poles, ended up on a roadside no harm done but hairy at the time) and have been between pistes as part of a lesson.
I can see how people get carried along with the herd mentality though, I got some stick for my last minute change of heart. The group all came back having had a great time. I don't regret backing out though, I'd have been worried all day and made them all miserable.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 21:47:25 GMT

Tony, security on ski routes and Itineraries varies from country to country. As a current example, the Verbier Avalanche happened in a ski route area. Not sure if those caught up were on the route or simply near it. Some countries patrol their Itineraries, some don't. Some are properly secured.

There is no "just off piste" status, you are either on or off. If you choose off, then it's down to you to deal with the conditions on the day. If you choose to venture off piste with no equipment or training, it's up to you.
As each ski year passes, you are likely to go a little further off the piste. Consider how far you'd like to be away from everything before it's worthwhile for you to buy the safety kit.

This little series of videos make a lot of sense...Avalanche Avoiding Kung Fu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqWNYiuZS28

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 21:58:31 GMT

Tony_H wrote:
So, can anyone actually shed any definitive light on what's what?
As ally says; do we REALLY need all the kit to ski a few metres between the pistes?????

That's just the point, there is no definitive answer. Every slope is different, and will change depending on weather conditions.
A lot of the skiing between the pistes will be low risk (rarely completely risk free), I'm happy to make a judgement call on whether I'm happy to ski it without my kit, but I'm aware also that there is a risk however small.
It's a judgement call that needs to be made at the time, not by proxy on an Internet forum.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 22:04:35 GMT

bandit wrote:
As each ski year passes, you are likely to go a little further off the piste. Consider how far you'd like to be away from everything before it's worthwhile for you to buy the safety kit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqWNYiuZS28

I think you may have just nailed it.
Anything I've ever done has always been under a chairlift, close to a piste, or in clear visibility.
My own judgement wouldn't take me off piste in bad weather at all.
I'm not hankering for touring between resorts.
Yet,

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 10 Dec 2012 23:14:56 GMT

To help you assess the risks involved have a look at the info provided by the SLF http://www.slf.ch/dienstleistungen/merkblaetter/index_EN and download their e-learning application White Risk http://download.whiterisk.org/WRStore/lang_e/home/home.jsp

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Tue, 11 Dec 2012 10:24:23 GMT

bandit wrote:Tony, security on ski routes and Itineraries varies from country to country. As a current example, the Verbier Avalanche happened in a ski route area. Not sure if those caught up were on the route or simply near it. Some countries patrol their Itineraries, some don't. Some are properly secured.

There is no "just off piste" status, you are either on or off. If you choose off, then it's down to you to deal with the conditions on the day. If you choose to venture off piste with no equipment or training, it's up to you.
As each ski year passes, you are likely to go a little further off the piste. Consider how far you'd like to be away from everything before it's worthwhile for you to buy the safety kit.

This little series of videos make a lot of sense...Avalanche Avoiding Kung Fu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqWNYiuZS28

Looks like the avalanche happened just next to ski route. Main access to Col des Mines itinerary is still closed and even if it's not a massive obstacle, it would have been a bit of hassle to ski around and side-step up. Crebelet access never closes as it's not an itinerary, just off-piste, and a stretch between Crebelet and Col des Mines is notorious for avalanches. It's quite silly to go there right after the storm, the snow there settles fairly quickly, but you need to give it time to do it and it will be good till the next storm.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Tue, 11 Dec 2012 10:46:35 GMT

Tony_H wrote:Interesting all this.
But we've gone from someone asking for advice straight into talking about avalanches.
Whilst I'm fully aware of this being a risk, I was actually trying to ask whether having ventured off piste a number of times before is as risky as some make it out to be. And no ones answered the question about ski routes or itinerary runs.
And for some reason we have got some responses about skiing in powder on piste; this is something ANYONE can do after a dump of snow and whilst its fun and helps teach you technique, its totally not the point.

I'm aware of local avalanche risks, the flag system, and pretty much in tune with the local weather wherever I ski, and aware how different conditions can affect snow.

I've never been the guy who made the first tracks. Off piste, anyway, maybe on piste ;-)
But I'd love to. I've only ever skied where I've seen other tracks. Zurs was a great example; a group of us took a chair over a large open area which had some tracks in it after 36 hours of persistent snow, and we all sad it looked amazing. However, at first attempt some of the group changed their mind so we skied down the piste and back up the chair. This time, everyone looked at it and decided it was well within their abilities and we had an amazing half hour. However, I'm sure on reflection there were risks which we maybe never considered properly. One of those who came got a proper telling off from their other half, who was unable to join us sadly.

I have to say it was great fun and as difficult as it may have seemed to some, everyone coped very well and were buzzing at the bottom.

But should we all have had shovels and transceivers?
I really don't honestly know the answer to that, and certainly none off the other skiers we saw on that area did.

So, can anyone actually shed any definitive light on what's what?
As ally says; do we REALLY need all the kit to ski a few metres between the pistes?????

I am not sure, Tony, what exactly you like to know about itineraries, but at least in Verbier they are marked runs and not considered off-piste as such. However, they are not avalanche controlled. The access will be closed when considered too dangerous (risk level 4, sometimes 3) and skiing the closed run will invalidate your insurance should something happen. When they are officially open you still need to excersise caution as they don't get bombed or monitored and avalanches may happen at risk level 2 and 3 all the same. But you will be covered in this case. I don't know what the status of itineraries/routes in other resorts/countries. Also, if you book yourself off-piste lesson/clinic, it will normally include off-piste insurance for the duration of the course. You should also be covered when you book a guide. I would say it's better to do course/clinic first, work on some technique, otherwise you will be taken by a guide to shallow areas that you can ski on your own anyway. Though, still it's good to know such places and access points, so you will get a good value if you do it in resort you ski often. But for once only visits - do courses and then eventually get a guide proper to ski some gnarl:):) And avalanche safety training (not just how to use the equipment, which you can learn by reading manuals) is fascinating. Won't make you an expert, but there are things that are good to know. Awareness is so much better than fear or just taking risks blindly IMHO. And no, I don't think you need safety gear to ski between pistes. Also, if the slope angle is below 30 degrees, it's not considered generally to be avalanche risky. Get "Staying alive in avalanche terrain" from Amazon - very interesting read, or 'Snow Sense' which has pretty much the same content though more brief. Both are very good sources of information on avalanches.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:05:10 GMT

Heres the problem: its woolly wording like "not considered off piste" and "generally" or "as such" that doesnt make things any clearer, no disrespect, as I massively appreciate the advice. I understand skiing a CLOSED run invalidates insurance, no problem with that, and I also understand avalanches may happen whatever the risk level.
Also, I assume "And no, I don't think you need safety gear to ski between pistes" is your own personal opinion, one which I share, rather than an official line? The problem is, if you are skiing between pistes and have an accident, are you expected to shuffle a few metres with your leg hanging off to the piste in order to get helicoptered off the mountain?

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:09:03 GMT

Tony_H wrote: The problem is, if you are skiing between pistes and have an accident, are you expected to shuffle a few metres with your leg hanging off to the piste in order to get helicoptered off the mountain?

Yes - unless yopur insurance ocvers you for off-piste rescue without a guide!

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:11:25 GMT

OldAndy wrote:

Tony_H wrote: The problem is, if you are skiing between pistes and have an accident, are you expected to shuffle a few metres with your leg hanging off to the piste in order to get helicoptered off the mountain?

Yes - unless yopur insurance ocvers you for off-piste rescue without a guide!

....which of course it doesnt.

So what happens then when the medics turn up and some do gooder says "yeh I saw him take a tumble right there between the pistes in the off piste....." ?

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:17:46 GMT

Tony_H wrote:

OldAndy wrote:

Tony_H wrote: The problem is, if you are skiing between pistes and have an accident, are you expected to shuffle a few metres with your leg hanging off to the piste in order to get helicoptered off the mountain?

Yes - unless yopur insurance ocvers you for off-piste rescue without a guide!

....which of course it doesnt.

So what happens then when the medics turn up and some do gooder says "yeh I saw him take a tumble right there between the pistes in the off piste....." ?

If you want to ski off-piste then buy cover that is appropriate!

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:20:20 GMT

OldAndy wrote:

Tony_H wrote:

OldAndy wrote:

Tony_H wrote: The problem is, if you are skiing between pistes and have an accident, are you expected to shuffle a few metres with your leg hanging off to the piste in order to get helicoptered off the mountain?

Yes - unless yopur insurance ocvers you for off-piste rescue without a guide!

....which of course it doesnt.

So what happens then when the medics turn up and some do gooder says "yeh I saw him take a tumble right there between the pistes in the off piste....." ?

If you want to ski off-piste then buy cover that is appropriate!

This is the whole crux of it.....whats off piste and what isnt? Between the pistes, itinerary routes, ski routes, etc.

I'm quite happy doing those at the moment, which I hadnt considered required additional insurance before now.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:34:33 GMT

I like to play it safe, so I've paid for Carre Neige insurance, which does cover ski-ing off-piste without a guide, and I've also got annual travel insurance with the Ski Club of GB which covers me for 21 days of ski-ing even if I am off-piste without a guide (but does have a GBP250 excess for search and rescue).

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the insurers counted you as off-piste even if you're only about 2 yards off the piste. They are, after all, trying to make a profit and from what I've seen of them they will try and wriggle out of paying up if it's at all possible!

So I'm certainly not planning on doing any serious off-piste stuff, but I might go the wrong way, go down the side of the piste, fall off the piste (!) or take a short cut to a cafe.

Edit
And if I decide I want to go seriously off-piste I will do a course on avalanche training and then book with a guide or an instructor and go with a group, all kitted out with the correct equipment.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Tue, 11 Dec 2012 11:43:50 GMT

Tony_H wrote:
This is the whole crux of it.....whats off piste and what isnt? Between the pistes, itinerary routes, ski routes, etc.

I'm quite happy doing those at the moment, which I hadnt considered required additional insurance before now.

Ha ha!!
A lightbulb moment :D

and a valid point, particularly about itineries and free ride areas.

From - http://www.jsinsurance.co.uk/travel_insurance/off-piste-skiing-travel-insurance.html
Off Piste Skiing Travel Insurance:
Off piste skiing, also known as backcountry skiing, is skiing in rural areas that are not marked trails or ski slopes in unmaintained and non patrolled areas.
Off-Piste is defined for Travel Insurance purposes as when you are skiing or snowboarding in an area designated safe by the Resort Management.
Never go off-piste alone and always carry an avalanche transceiver, shovel and a probe.

and from Direct Travel - who I use.....
http://www.direct-travel.co.uk/faq/can-i-ski-and-snowboard-off-piste.aspx
Can I ski and snowboard off-piste?
Yes. Our winter sports travel policies allow you complete freedom of the mountains (as long as you are not skiing or snowboarding against local authority or resort management advice)

Personally I want the knowledge that wherever I end up, by design or accident, I am covered!

It does look like each insurer may have a slightly different wording - which could have an impact on itineraries for example.

I have no idea what your people would say if you crashed and needed rescuing from 20' past a blue pole - and more importantly perhaps what the view would be if you crashed into someone and seriously damaged them 20' from said pole.

If I were an insurer I would say "sorry, not covered, your outside the marked pistes and haven't got off-piste cover".

Now - whereas you could possible pull yourself back to the piste with a smashed knee or broken something or other - I doubt that the person you ran into would be that happy with you slinging them over your shoulder and taking them back to the piste so they could claim damages on your insurance!

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Tue, 11 Dec 2012 12:53:27 GMT

Ok, so the insurance is something I need to look into, although it should cover me for ski routes and itinerary runs as they are marked trails, right?

As for transceivers and shovels, I dont think Im at the stage where I need them with what Im likely to be skiing. Its not like Im going down the back of the valuga......and the vast majority of people I saw doing that didnt carry full kit either.....

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Tue, 11 Dec 2012 13:06:38 GMT

Tony_H wrote:Heres the problem: its woolly wording like "not considered off piste" and "generally" or "as such" that doesnt make things any clearer, no disrespect, as I massively appreciate the advice. I understand skiing a CLOSED run invalidates insurance, no problem with that, and I also understand avalanches may happen whatever the risk level.
Also, I assume "And no, I don't think you need safety gear to ski between pistes" is your own personal opinion, one which I share, rather than an official line? The problem is, if you are skiing between pistes and have an accident, are you expected to shuffle a few metres with your leg hanging off to the piste in order to get helicoptered off the mountain?

Tony, with most injuries not life/limb-threatening and which happen in the proximity of pistes and easily accessible from there you won't be helicoptered off but brought down on sledges by patrol. Helicopters are expensive and even if you are fully covered it doesn't make practical sense to fly them especially that there can be a more serious situation elsewhere. If something happens patrol is usually called. They will only call a helicopter if there are no other means to get to you and get you down.

Just buy insurance in resort when you are buying a ski pass, it should have you covered (unless you duck the rope put by resort) and will supplement your travel insurance (which I heard could be tricky). I also buy a Rega insurance. I think for 30 CHF a year it's a fantastic deal. If you choose a country to ski any given year you can buy a local alternative. Carre Neige in France is very good. The lift company at your chosen resort should normally have information desk and if you are in doubt you can always ask them what you need to be covered.

As for safety gear I haven't heard there is a requirement to have one for skiing between the pistes. Moreover when I only started venturing between pistes and began taking lessons, my instructor would be taking me everywhere between pistes and he said that I didn't need any special insurance, but once I advanced enough and wanted to ski harder and more remote stuff I had to start advanced lessons which specifically covered me for off-piste (apart from areas explicitly banned by a school) and I had to bring gear. But we were skiing further off-piste and even hiking up some mountains to ski down. If you are taking an off-piste course or a guided tour gear is required.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Tue, 11 Dec 2012 13:27:54 GMT

AllyG wrote: I wouldn't be at all surprised if the insurers counted you as off-piste even if you're only about 2 yards off the piste.

According to this document; L'obligation d'assurer la securite sur les descnetes pour sports de neige. http://www.seilbahnen.org/Service_des_piste_et_de_sauvetage.html which governs the operation of snow sport areas here in Switzerland, the piste officially ends 2 metres beyond the poles marking the edge of the piste. Other alpine countries have similar regulations.

If you are skiing off piste near to a piste you should take extra care as pistes are legally classified as public thoroughfares, if you trigger an avalanche that covers one it's an extremely serious matter especially if someone one is caught in it.

It is a criminal offence to trigger an avalanche in Italy (even in the middle of nowhere) the punishment can be up to 12 years in jail, if a death is involved 15 years. As I mentioned previously it's mandatory to carry avi gear when skiing off piste in Piemonte, in the rest of Italy ski tourers are required use avalanche transceivers if there is an obvious avalanche risk, the risk level is not given.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Tue, 11 Dec 2012 14:49:32 GMT

SwingBeep wrote:
It is a criminal offence to trigger an avalanche in Italy (even in the middle of nowhere) the punishment can be up to 12 years in jail, if a death is involved 15 years. As I mentioned previously it's mandatory to carry avi gear when skiing off piste in Piemonte, in the rest of Italy ski tourers are required use avalanche transceivers if there is an obvious avalanche risk, the risk level is not given.

I can understand if you trigger an avalanche onto a piste or other slope users due to recklessness, but this law seems ridiculously draconian.

Sorry to hijack the thread somewhat.

If SwingBeeps interpretation is correct, think about what this means. Imagine you are skiing with a guide in an area miles away from the resort having done everything right (training, checking avalanche bulletins, carrying the right equipment etc...). However, you are very unlucky and get into a situation where you need rescuing by your guide and companion, who also call mountain rescue and the emergency services. Do you then go to prison? Do we end up in the situation that people in minor incidents hold off reporting them due to the fear of prosecution? How does that serve the greater good?

If you are prosecuted, are you tried by a jury of your peers? Are you tried by a jury of off piste skiers or the general public?

I find the encroachment of law into private mountain pursuits very sad.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Tue, 11 Dec 2012 15:41:02 GMT

steverandomno wrote:

If SwingBeeps interpretation is correct, think about what this means. Imagine you are skiing with a guide in an area miles away from the resort having done everything right (training, checking avalanche bulletins, carrying the right equipment etc...). However, you are very unlucky and get into a situation where you need rescuing by your guide and companion, who also call mountain rescue and the emergency services. Do you then go to prison?

If you are prosecuted, are you tried by a jury of your peers? Are you tried by a jury of off piste skiers or the general public?

In that scenario the Guide is responsible as they are the professional in charge of the group/you.

Any trial like that would call an Expert Witness. In France Alain Duclos is often called to give an opinion. It's usually a Judge in charge.

http://www.alea-avalanche.com/

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Tue, 11 Dec 2012 15:56:22 GMT

Tony, it's good practice to carry the appropriate gear when off piste. This would enable you to search for, and dig out your family and friends if they were unfortunate enough to be in an avalanche. If all of your group are suitably equipped then they can do the same for you.
Additionally, if you come across an avalanche, you can help to search for victims, aid other rescuers/search teams if needed.

If you buy insurance which is suitable for off piste skiing, then your insurer will expect you to take all appropriate steps available to ensure your own safety. There is usually a clause in the small print about not putting yourself in needless peril.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:59:10 GMT

I was just visualizing to myself what would happen if I was ski-ing in a group which included one of my kids and none of us had avalanche kit, and there was an avalanche and I was OK but they were under it and all I had were my hands to dig them out with and nothing to locate them with :shock:

So - as I've said already - before I start going off piste I'm going to go on an avalanche course to learn how to use probes, shovels, and transceivers, and how to read the snow, avalanche bulletins, and the weather etc. And then I'm only going to ski serious off-piste stuff in a group where everyone is kitted out with avalanche gear and knows how to use it, and with a qualified guide.

Like most people I imagine, I really value my life, and I'm not prepared to take unecessary risks with it.

So, I suppose the first step for me would be to go to some of the avalanche lectures they have here in the U.K., maybe read a book on it, and then do one of the full day courses they offer in places like Val Thorens where they teach you how to find people buried in the snow etc.

And then, perhaps, one day if I'm feeling brave enough, I may do a course on off-piste ski-ing that the ski schools offer sometimes. I know the ESF offer this in certain resorts, like Meribel for example:

http://www.esf-meribel.com/ski-school-meribel/cours-ski-hors-piste/hors-piste.jsp

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Wed, 12 Dec 2012 09:52:10 GMT

bandit wrote:

steverandomno wrote:

If SwingBeeps interpretation is correct, think about what this means. Imagine you are skiing with a guide in an area miles away from the resort having done everything right (training, checking avalanche bulletins, carrying the right equipment etc...). However, you are very unlucky and get into a situation where you need rescuing by your guide and companion, who also call mountain rescue and the emergency services. Do you then go to prison?

If you are prosecuted, are you tried by a jury of your peers? Are you tried by a jury of off piste skiers or the general public?

In that scenario the Guide is responsible as they are the professional in charge of the group/you.

Any trial like that would call an Expert Witness. In France Alain Duclos is often called to give an opinion. It's usually a Judge in charge.

http://www.alea-avalanche.com/

Bandit, I'm curious. As somebody who is experienced in off-piste and mountaineering, do you have an opinion about these legal issues?

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:49:57 GMT

verbier_ski_bum wrote:
Tony, with most injuries not life/limb-threatening and which happen in the proximity of pistes and easily accessible from there you won't be helicoptered off but brought down on sledges by patrol. Helicopters are expensive and even if you are fully covered it doesn't make practical sense to fly them especially that there can be a more serious situation elsewhere. If something happens patrol is usually called. They will only call a helicopter if there are no other means to get to you and get you down.

That might be the position in Switzerland but I have noticed a marked increase in the number of helicopter evacuations, even from pistes. I raised this locally with an instructor (in Soll, I think) and he said they have become much more concerned about concussion and other head injuries, probably post-Miranda Richardson, and will call in the helicopter if there is any evidence of confusion, etc.

Of course,the suspicious might think it is about ensuring that the service has enough business to make it viable :twisted:

Whatever the justification, full insurance cover is essential unless you want to face an extremely expensive bill :evil: I think this also means that it would be wise to get "full off-piste insurance" if you are venturing outside the piste poles, even on a limited basis :shock:

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:11:33 GMT

Reading all of the above, fascinating though it all is, I'm so glad my own modest skill level makes me quite happy with on-piste skiing !

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:08:59 GMT

I presume it is a prerequisite then to have appropriate first aid and medical skills if you have all the avalanche kit? On the other side of the coin, if you have the kit does it make it easier to be found or should I say quicker to be found if 'taken'? or is it just designed to find people? Can anyone recommend the best value for money kit for recreational skiers? Thanks

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Wed, 12 Dec 2012 18:38:13 GMT

steverandomno wrote:

Bandit, I'm curious. As somebody who is experienced in off-piste and mountaineering, do you have an opinion about these legal issues?

In no way am I experienced in off piste or mountaineering. I have barely scratched the surface. The more I learn, the more I realise there is to learn.
My personal opinion is that reckless behaviour off piste should be addressed pretty firmly. If this does not happen, it will eventually become impossible to buy affordable insurance.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Wed, 12 Dec 2012 18:45:52 GMT

Adam67 wrote:I presume it is a prerequisite then to have appropriate first aid and medical skills if you have all the avalanche kit? On the other side of the coin, if you have the kit does it make it easier to be found or should I say quicker to be found if 'taken'? or is it just designed to find people? Can anyone recommend the best value for money kit for recreational skiers? Thanks

Sport Conrad are offering safety packages this winter. Everyone knows a little first aid, enough to save a life. If you are wearing a Transceiver and your friends are also wearing them, then if you are buried, it's easier to find you. A Probe to pinpoint your position under the snow and a decent Shovel to dig you out quickly.
The 1st and golden rule is not to put yourself in the position where you might get buried (which is why education is very important)

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:03:23 GMT

I don't know about other resorts, but Tignes has an avalanche training zone, by the lake, which apparently (according to the piste map) has 8 beacons buried permanently under the snow so that people can practise their search technique using avalanche transceivers.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:38:02 GMT

bandit wrote:

In no way am I experienced in off piste or mountaineering. I have barely scratched the surface. The more I learn, the more I realise there is to learn.
My personal opinion is that reckless behaviour off piste should be addressed pretty firmly. If this does not happen, it will eventually become impossible to buy affordable insurance.

Bandit - Apologies. You may have only scratched the surface, but from the little I know, you are more experienced than me which I guess is what I meant.

For what it's worth. I absolutely agree with you about reckless behaviour. What worries me, is that the laws drawn up to clamp down on reckless behaviour off piste will have the unintended consequence of penalising, or even criminalising, those who have behaved responsibly but were just unlucky.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Wed, 12 Dec 2012 20:23:21 GMT

Adam67 wrote:I presume it is a prerequisite then to have appropriate first aid and medical skills if you have all the avalanche kit? On the other side of the coin, if you have the kit does it make it easier to be found or should I say quicker to be found if 'taken'? or is it just designed to find people? Can anyone recommend the best value for money kit for recreational skiers? Thanks

Not sure about value for money, but I can vouch for the BCA Tracker. It is very simple to use with large controls, which becomes very important if you have to use it. The newer model has been improved to make it even esier to operate. (I especially like the look of the control to switch from transmit to search mode, which makes it very difficult to accidentaly leave it in search mode.)

http://www.backcountryaccess.com/product/tracker-2/

For shovels and probes, ebay is probably your friend. Do make sure that you pick a shovel and probe that is sturdy enough. Avalanche snow sets very solidly. You are not going to be digging or probing light powder. Then you need a backpack to put it all in. Do not be tempted to strap these things to the outside of a pack. They can easily get ripped off if you are caught in a slide.

As you can see, it is a pretty big outlay for something you hope to never need, even at ebay prices. This is without considering, touring bindings, boots or skins. Then you need to consider how much baggage this will add to your allowance when flying. You must make sure you know how to use the equipment and practice. As others have said, it is just as important to get educated so that you don't end up in a slide in the first place.

I suspect that most people who read this site are similar to me in that they do a few weeks skiing a year, at most, and will not realistically be able to develop the skills and experience necessary to venture off into the wilderness without a guide during the limited time they have. This makes it very unecconomical to get all of the kit for the few times you might hire a guide or participate in a group excursion. In many of these cases, the kit is available or provided for free. However, there are a few avalanche controled areas in Canada that require you to have the equipment as a condition of entry.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Wed, 12 Dec 2012 21:34:28 GMT

AllyG wrote:I don't know about other resorts, but Tignes has an avalanche training zone, by the lake, which apparently (according to the piste map) has 8 beacons buried permanently under the snow so that people can practise their search technique using avalanche transceivers.

Why worry seeing as you said you're not going to go off piste........apart from that run you mentioned on another thread?

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Wed, 12 Dec 2012 21:49:38 GMT

bandit wrote:Tony, it's good practice to carry the appropriate gear when off piste. This would enable you to search for, and dig out your family and friends if they were unfortunate enough to be in an avalanche. If all of your group are suitably equipped then they can do the same for you.
Additionally, if you come across an avalanche, you can help to search for victims, aid other rescuers/search teams if needed.

If you buy insurance which is suitable for off piste skiing, then your insurer will expect you to take all appropriate steps available to ensure your own safety. There is usually a clause in the small print about not putting yourself in needless peril.

As Steve has just pointed out, for someone like myself who skies maybe 3 weeks a season if I'm lucky, it's a big layout and it raises the issues as Steve has also pointed out a lot transporting them.
I know, bandit, you like to be modest about what you do, but you live for much of the season in Switzerland, and regularly post us photos of off piste runs you have done which look amazing, and regularly talk about all the touring gear you have, so whilst you may still be learning and developing, compared to 99.9% of uk skiers you have bags of experience and knowledge, and I for one am grateful for you to share it with us.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Wed, 12 Dec 2012 22:02:46 GMT

This may have beem said in a previous post, but they are so long to go back over.
Is it possivle to hire appropriate gear for a week to save the cost of purchase and transport?
I did see you will be provided with it you hire a guide.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Wed, 12 Dec 2012 23:34:26 GMT

The Mammut Element Barryvox and the Ortovox 3+ do well in tests here http://www.kassensturz.sf.tv/Tests/Lawinenverschuettetensuchgeraete-im-Test The shovel should preferably be made from 6061 aluminium tempered to T6 and if you have a small hand a D shaped handle is better than a T shaped one. The probe should be about 2.5m in length and should not come apart or bend in use; some of them are a bit flimsy.

It is possible to rent the gear but you need to practice using it first.

Considering the size of the market (the world market for avalanche transceivers is about 70,000 units a year) and their complexity, transceivers are remarkably cheap. Sport Conrad is selling one for 190 euros at the moment, which isn't a great deal more than a POC helmet.

The real problem is acquiring the knowledge needed to decide whether a slope is safe to ski or not, this takes time and most skiers simply don't have the time available. A recent study by an Austrian university found that 40% of off piste skiers under estimate the avalanche danger, especially when the slope is greater than 40 degrees, when the snow is wet and when the avalanche danger is at level 4.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Thu, 13 Dec 2012 00:32:33 GMT

SwingBeep wrote:
The real problem is acquiring the knowledge needed to decide whether a slope is safe to ski or not, this takes time and most skiers simply don't have the time available. A recent study by an Austrian university found that 40% of off piste skiers under estimate the avalanche danger, especially when the slope is greater than 40 degrees, when the snow is wet and when the avalanche danger is at level 4.

Having read every post in this debate, without comment, I think the above is the nub. It is difficult for the 2/3 weeker to accumulate the knowledge, and the "feeling" for avalanche potential.
Imagine you are an interviewer on the slopes. You ask people:
"What angle of slope are you skiing on?"
"What is the current Avalanche Level on this slope?"
"What was the ground temperature prior to the last major snowfall?"
Maybe several other technical questions. ~ Who could answer?

While we all should be able to answer the AV Level, I doubt that many could assess other questions.

I have, fortunately on few occasions, had a realisation that I was in avalanche danger ~purely by the feeling underfoot. It is unexplainable, but I have recognised the feeling, and moved cautiously away.
The OP rightly asked about the move from Off Piste advice to avalanche issues. They are entwined.
When I started skiing, there was no Piste and off Piste. In my favourite resort, there were 17 named runs. We freely skied all of them, without any thought of piste or off-piste.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Thu, 13 Dec 2012 07:55:50 GMT

Tony, Dids1 you can rent Shovels, Probes and Transceivers in most decent ski shops. If you are flying with the kit, a Transceiver should go in your hand baggage, probe and shovel in your hold baggage. Shovel is quite useful for protecting stuff in the case!
Got the chance to test this out locally last year when my OH left his Transceiver in the UK :mrgreen:
He rented a Barryvox Pulse and said it was very easy to use.
The kit is light, weight is not an issue. My shovel weighs 1.2lbs or so.

Rental is a good place to start, and it would be a great opportunity to go and spend an hour in one of the many dedicated training centres where you can set a simulated search and dig . There are quite a few around the Euopean Alps now, AllyG has mentioned the one in Tignes.

What I think I'm reading is that folks don't think they are serious enough to warrant carrying the kit. I'd say that because they are lacking in knowledge and experience in off piste terrain, they they will need the kit more than a local Mountain Guide does, since the Guide is able to assess the situation effectively.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 17 Dec 2012 10:10:07 GMT

Dids1 wrote:This may have beem said in a previous post, but they are so long to go back over.
Is it possivle to hire appropriate gear for a week to save the cost of purchase and transport?
I did see you will be provided with it you hire a guide.

Yes, you can hire transceiver, shovel and probe and save on purchase costs, but transporting costs are negligible, you just throw everything in your suitcase -it won't even add much weight.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 17 Dec 2012 17:30:06 GMT

OldAndy wrote:

Tony_H wrote:
This is the whole crux of it.....whats off piste and what isnt? Between the pistes, itinerary routes, ski routes, etc.

I'm quite happy doing those at the moment, which I hadnt considered required additional insurance before now.

Ha ha!!
A lightbulb moment :D

and a valid point, particularly about itineries and free ride areas.

From - http://www.jsinsurance.co.uk/travel_insurance/off-piste-skiing-travel-insurance.html
Off Piste Skiing Travel Insurance:
Off piste skiing, also known as backcountry skiing, is skiing in rural areas that are not marked trails or ski slopes in unmaintained and non patrolled areas.
Off-Piste is defined for Travel Insurance purposes as when you are skiing or snowboarding in an area designated safe by the Resort Management.
Never go off-piste alone and always carry an avalanche transceiver, shovel and a probe.

and from Direct Travel - who I use.....
http://www.direct-travel.co.uk/faq/can-i-ski-and-snowboard-off-piste.aspx
Can I ski and snowboard off-piste?
Yes. Our winter sports travel policies allow you complete freedom of the mountains (as long as you are not skiing or snowboarding against local authority or resort management advice)

Personally I want the knowledge that wherever I end up, by design or accident, I am covered!

It does look like each insurer may have a slightly different wording - which could have an impact on itineraries for example.

I have no idea what your people would say if you crashed and needed rescuing from 20' past a blue pole - and more importantly perhaps what the view would be if you crashed into someone and seriously damaged them 20' from said pole.

If I were an insurer I would say "sorry, not covered, your outside the marked pistes and haven't got off-piste cover".

Now - whereas you could possible pull yourself back to the piste with a smashed knee or broken something or other - I doubt that the person you ran into would be that happy with you slinging them over your shoulder and taking them back to the piste so they could claim damages on your insurance!

I think direct travel are US owned - and they have a slightly different interpretation of on & off piste. In Europe we tend to interpret on piste as the strip that is strictly marked as such whereas you get the impression that in the US they have ski areas, with pisted runs and unbashed areas but they don't have the clear distinction of on & off piste that we have so their policies are worded differently.

I'm with them for that reason as some of the UK insurers take a very strict interpretation of what's on & off piste - like the bumps and jumps that are deliberately created at the edge of pistes for us to play on are outside the poles thus off piste. The same with the drop at the side of the piste into a car park or chalet - it's off piste but not necessarily an avalanche risk but marked as off piste because it's someones garden or chalet entrance.

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:44:50 GMT

Having read all posts now on this topic and become more concerned, I have checked my insurance and discovered Iam only covered off piste when with a guide. My family are on occasions taken just off piste in their lessons. Which makes me wonder, is an instructor classed as a guide? I do ski off piste myself, but nothing more than off the side of the piste. I dont intend on employing the services of a guide for this, so does Carte Neige or Carre Neige cover you without a guide? Iam looking at this from the insurance point of view. Thanks

Re:Offpiste advice for noobies

Tue, 18 Dec 2012 06:01:32 GMT

Yes, it does.