Latest posts for the topic "Who offers ski hosting?"

Who offers ski hosting?

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 09:02:36 GMT

It is presently looking like I will get a weeks skiing authorised through the budget committee in January next.

Due to strategic planning for 2013/14 this is most likely to be a last minute offer, and as a single skier I could end up anywhere.

Last year I got a cheap week in with a Mark Warner last minute deal in L2A which worked very, very well. A highlight of this for me was their comprehensive ski hosting. I loved the fact I didn't look at a piste map all week, which after too many years being in charge of children and novices was wonderful for me.

Who else offers this type of hosting?
More than a day or two per week?
Several groups so I can slot in at an appropriate level?
Chalet hotel preferably as a bigger place gives me more chance of finding people who will talk to me.
:mrgreen:
Reasonable resort!

Any thoughts?
TVM
OA
:thumbup:

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 09:34:34 GMT

Neilson always state in their brochure where hosting is available, Definately dare I say Bulgaria?, La Thuile, Are Sweden, 3 days each in Sweden/La thuile last times I went. I think they did it by areas the last time, but generally they do a blue day/red day/black day.
Inghams did but it was only 1 day, 1 level and at the rate of the slowest guest.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 09:41:28 GMT

Well there is just a bit of space left with us!!.we'll look after you!

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 09:55:52 GMT

Andy, are you talking about a holiday for yourself during the ski season 2013/2014?

These people offer ski hosting:

http://www.skiolympic.com

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 18:24:20 GMT

Skiworld offer ski hosting, excellent it is too.
Usually 3 times a week, but that will include days for different levels.
I remember one advanced day, one of the best days skiing I've ever had, we skiing just about every black run in 3V.

http://www.skiworld.co.uk/ski-holidays/ski-hosting

They also specialise in single skiers: http://www.skiworld.co.uk/single-travellers

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 19:53:36 GMT

Ski Miquel usually offer 5 out of 6 days ski hosting.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 08:25:46 GMT

Andy, we used clubmed at avoriaz in feb this year...their package is fully inclusive including hosting/instruction for the week. We racked up the miles across the whole of the
POS without a piste map.
They can appear expensive but everything (except kit hire) is included.....really good food, passes, mojitos etc.
The company was mixed and very friendly..American, Russian, Israeli, Spanish, French and some Brits.
The skiing was fantastic with a real mix of runs.
We are going to Morzine in January then back to MW in L2A in Feb (for the 12th time!).....
Rob

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 08:39:08 GMT

Thank you one and all!

I am now sorted for my first hol this year having decided to brave the J2Ski Tignes trip.

AllyG has promised to guide for me all week.
:thumbup:

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 10:33:03 GMT

Had a couple of great days skiing last year with guides from Inghams

Someone sent me this though - apologies if it's been posted before and apologies that I don't have the original provenence of the article to establish its veracity:

HUNDREDS of guides who show British skiers around French resorts face being banned and even arrested under new rules.

The "ski hosts", employed by British companies, fall foul of a requirement that only qualified instructors can take visitors around the local pistes.

French police and the Ecole du Ski Francaise (ESF), the official training body, are to bring a test case against Nick Morgan, co-owner of Le Ski, a chalet company based in Huddersfield which operates out of Courchevel and Meribel in the Trois Vallees area of Savoy.

Other British companies, including Crystal, Inghams, Skiworld and Mark Warner, fear that a conviction would leave them open to prosecution if they continue to offer a ski escort service to their guests.

The companies believe they are being targeted because highly qualified and well paid French alpine guides fear their jobs are threatened.

But they argue that in large ski areas such as the Trois Vallees, with 370 miles of pistes, guests coming for a week have little hope of finding the best runs and restaurants without help.

The hosts usually have other duties including airport runs and are not specifically employed as ski guides. Brochures state clearly that they are there only to orientate guests. They do not usually have any mountain qualifications.

Andy Perrin, managing director of Inghams, said: "Far from taking jobs away from locals, they actually provide work.

"They'll give information on ski schools and types of lesson to anyone who feels they might benefit from some instruction. Ski hosting is an important free service to our guests and we will be continuing to provide it this winter."

The Ski Club of Great Britain also has about 70 ski leaders based in French resorts, who take members around the mountains. They are also anxiously awaiting the outcome of the court case.

Jean-Marc Simon, administrative director of the ESF in Grenoble, said: "This is purely about ski safety. We cannot have unqualified people taking groups of skiers around the mountain.

"We did not instigate this investigation, but as people responsible for mountain safety we must support the authorities."

The ESF viewpoint is supported by the British Association of Snowsports Instructors.

Dave Renous, its corporate affairs manager, said: "Our job as responsible ski instructors is to try and lower the risk factor on the mountain.

"Having unqualified escorts in charge of groups of skiers is inevitably raising that risk factor."

One large travel company has privately threatened to boycott Meribel, also in the Trois Vallees, if the prosecution is successful and others could follow.

The region's linked resorts attract more British skiers than anywhere else and any boycott would severely damage the local economy.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 10:41:29 GMT

Thanks Andyoneill,
Yes, I did know about this. In fact, on the details for our chalet the owners specifically say that the ski hosting may be withdrawn:

We reserve the right to withdraw activities such as ski hosting or tobogganing nights if required to do so by the authorities.

Personally, I think the ski hosting should be allowed to continue, because I reckon the sort of people that use ski hosts wouldn't employ ski guides instead if the service was withdrawn - they'd simply struggle on alone and be in far greater danger than they would with the ski hosts.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 10:51:00 GMT

AllyG wrote:

Personally, I think the ski hosting should be allowed to continue, because I reckon the sort of people that use ski hosts wouldn't employ ski guides instead if the service was withdrawn - they'd simply struggle on alone and be in far greater danger than they would with the ski hosts.

Absolutely - hosting to show me round a resort I don't know (especially one with such a huge variety of slopes as 3V, EK etc)is a great service that I appreciate but dont treat as being "in charge of me" during that time

Guiding (off piste) I would and would expect to pay for if I wanted to go that extra level

I know the Crystal reps aren't allowed to wear their black gear whilst guiding for fear that people will think they are the ESF and are teaching.

Any "hosting" I've ever had has always been at pains to say that they don't teach and they don't go down anything stronger than reds (for insurance apparently)

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 11:38:09 GMT

andyoneil wrote:

Any "hosting" I've ever had has always been at pains to say that they don't teach and they don't go down anything stronger than reds (for insurance apparently)

Andy, I think some ski hosts will take you down black runs. I know the Ski Club of GB will even take you off piste, and this is what Leski.com say:

Val d'Isere
As well as the daunting Olympic black
run La Face above Val d'Isere, our hosts will take you from the famous Aiguille Percee on the 1200m descent of La Sache over in Tignes.

Let's hope that ski hosting will be allowed to continue :D

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 11:42:10 GMT

La face doesn't need to be hosted. It's very obvious where you have to go!

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 11:44:59 GMT

bedrock barney wrote:La face doesn't need to be hosted. It's very obvious where you have to go!

Straight down!!!!

Then into the pub, sharpish!

Hope Bananas is back for this year!

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 11:51:48 GMT

AllyG wrote:

Andy, I think some ski hosts will take you down black runs. I know the Ski Club of GB will even take you off piste,

But when they do they use a local guide who's qualified to go off piste, the ski club don't claim to be:

"Participation statement: Ski Club Leaders are trained volunteers, not qualified instructors or mountain guides. By choosing to ski with a Leader, we ask that you accept responsibility for your own safety, and the safety of your environment. If you feel that a route may be too difficult, you must make your Leader aware of this."

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:08:48 GMT

It's an interesting case, I can see a clear line that an "instructor" teaches you the best lines and/or techniques but whereas a "host" simply takes you to the top of a slope using the most efficient lifts/route and then meets you at the bottom of the slope.

So where do you draw the line between that and a group of friends, say the Tignes trip in January, what if AllyG works out an itinerary for the day, decides the particular area, favourite pistes and a lunch stop. Is she a "host"?

I hope the test case is unsuccessful. Why pick on Nick Morgan I wonder?

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:17:06 GMT

Thats exactly how I'd take the difference to be too Smartski - and indeed a fair question about Ally (or any of us in a group of friends thrust into the role of piste map reader extraordinaire (see my sig...)) and how they would be perceived under this potential test case

I too hope its unsuccessful

As for Nick Morgan - I have no knowledge of the man or his company but common sense would suggest that if they're going after him rather than the far more visible Crystal/First Choice/Inghams etc then he's perhaps done something to raise his head abaove the parapet and has now had it shot at....

Anyone have any knowledge of this company who could comment?

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:33:08 GMT

(Something has gone a bit wrong with this post - never mind!)

Smartski and Andy,
I totally agree with what you both said, and that's why I added this bit (about why I'm not a ski host).

AllyG wrote:

And I don't think any court in any country would be able to declare that I was acting as a ski guide, because I never know where I am when I'm ski-ing up in the mountains, and I don't pretend to :lol:

So far I've always managed to get back to my chalet/hotel/apartment before the lifts shut and it gets dark, but that's about the limit of my abilities!

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:37:00 GMT

Hence they make you sign the statement that says "upon my own head be it"

I think your guiding may be more advanced than my own Ally - I've failed to get back before it goes dark in the past

I've even failed to get back to my own apartment a long time ago in Pas with the lads but that's another story :oops:

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:50:59 GMT

andyoneil wrote:indeed a fair question about Ally (or any of us in a group of friends thrust into the role of piste map reader extraordinaire (see my sig...))

Hmm, FYI you don't appear to have a sig :wink:

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:53:42 GMT

Far Queue wrote:

andyoneil wrote:indeed a fair question about Ally (or any of us in a group of friends thrust into the role of piste map reader extraordinaire (see my sig...))

Hmm, FYI you don't appear to have a sig :wink:

So I don't - dunno when that fell off and my profile says it still should be attached....

Will have to go fix

In the meantime though

"I've stopped putting the piste map in the hands of people who don't know the difference between a black run and a drag lift"

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:28:08 GMT

andyoneil wrote:

I think your guiding may be more advanced than my own Ally - I've failed to get back before it goes dark in the past

I've even failed to get back to my own apartment a long time ago in Pas with the lads but that's another story :oops:

Thanks Andy, that's very kind of you to say so :D

About the only thing I am good at is reading the small print on the piste maps which tell you what time each lift shuts, and making sure I don't get stuck in the wrong valley/country :lol:

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:42:38 GMT

AllyG wrote:

About the only thing I am good at is reading the small print on the piste maps which tell you what time each lift shuts, and making sure I don't get stuck in the wrong valley/country :lol:

An important and much underrated skill - expensive cab from VDI back to Les Brev.....

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:50:41 GMT

AllyG wrote:
And as for myself and the group I've been organizing - I've got no intention of going off-piste, or encouraging anyone else to do so. And to be quite truthful I don't think any of us are intending to go off-piste - I mean it's too much hassle hiring all the gear and carrying it and worrying about the state of the snow, the weather, the avalanche warnings etc. etc.

If anyone does decide they want to go off-piste I will advise them to hire a guide.

But if I understand correctly, the test case is not about going 'off-piste'. It is even about being a "Host" on-piste.

So if somebody goes out with a group (friends, uni students, met down the pub, met on a website :shock: ); and that person decides where the group goes, then to my mind they are doing exactly the same as a "Host".

It's a mine field!

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:02:33 GMT

smartski wrote:

But if I understand correctly, the test case is not about going 'off-piste'. It is even about being a "Host" on-piste.

So if somebody goes out with a group (friends, uni students, met down the pub, met on a website :shock: ); and that person decides where the group goes, then to my mind they are doing exactly the same as a "Host".

It's a mine field!

Yes, this is my understanding too. If you are notionally, leading/organising/showing around a group in a resort on piste, they'd like you banned. Unless you are a qualified ski instructor, then the ESF will turn up with a Gendarme and try to have you arrested for teaching illegally.

The French authorities would really like you to hire a French ski instructor, or a French Mountain Guide to point out the piste markers, lifts, and where the free toilets are on the hill :roll:

I feel a middle digit twitching...... :twisted:

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:07:06 GMT

bandit wrote:

smartski wrote:

But if I understand correctly, the test case is not about going 'off-piste'. It is even about being a "Host" on-piste.

So if somebody goes out with a group (friends, uni students, met down the pub, met on a website :shock: ); and that person decides where the group goes, then to my mind they are doing exactly the same as a "Host".

It's a mine field!

Yes, this is my understanding too. If you are notionally, leading/organising/showing around a group in a resort on piste, they'd like you banned. Unless you are a qualified ski instructor, then the ESF will turn up with a Gendarme and try to have you arrested for teaching illegally.

The French authorities would really like you to hire a French ski instructor, or a French Mountain Guide to point out the piste markers, lifts, and where the free toilets are on the hill :roll:

I feel a middle digit twitching...... :twisted:

We will have to practice our "I am Spartacus" routine to protect AllyG when she is reading the piste map for us when we go to Tignes then :shock:

Probably all get locked up as a result tho :roll:

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:10:28 GMT

bandit wrote:

The French authorities would really like you to hire a French ski instructor, or a French Mountain Guide to point out the piste markers, lifts, and where the free toilets are on the hill :roll:

I feel a middle digit twitching...... :twisted:

And this is one of the reasons my group now prefer to look at other countries for our skiing. And a good job too, we had a fantastic time in Austria last season and are looking forward to returning this one. Italy and Switzerland have both proven to be great alternates as well.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:17:43 GMT

felthorpe wrote:

bandit wrote:

smartski wrote:

But if I understand correctly, the test case is not about going 'off-piste'. It is even about being a "Host" on-piste.

So if somebody goes out with a group (friends, uni students, met down the pub, met on a website :shock: ); and that person decides where the group goes, then to my mind they are doing exactly the same as a "Host".

It's a mine field!

Yes, this is my understanding too. If you are notionally, leading/organising/showing around a group in a resort on piste, they'd like you banned. Unless you are a qualified ski instructor, then the ESF will turn up with a Gendarme and try to have you arrested for teaching illegally.

The French authorities would really like you to hire a French ski instructor, or a French Mountain Guide to point out the piste markers, lifts, and where the free toilets are on the hill :roll:

I feel a middle digit twitching...... :twisted:

We will have to practice our "I am Spartacus" routine to protect AllyG when she is reading the piste map for us when we go to Tignes then :shock:

Probably all get locked up as a result tho :roll:

Footage of Ally being arrested & carted off the piste by the gendarmes could be worth a fair bit on the open market & could cover the groups trip costs, so think carefully before adopting the "I am Ally" routine :evil:

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:53:46 GMT

There's a perfectly simple solution to this - I'll just qualify as a ski instructor. I mean, I've got 73 days before the holiday - that's plenty of time - nothing to it :wink:

And maybe I'd better delete that photo of me, on our group holiday thread, in case we have to move to plan b :lol:

Mind you, plan c sounds pretty good too - as long as I get a share of the money and I finally get out of prison! I think my holiday insurance covers legal fees :D

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 16:29:17 GMT

smartski wrote:

AllyG wrote:
And as for myself and the group I've been organizing - I've got no intention of going off-piste, or encouraging anyone else to do so. And to be quite truthful I don't think any of us are intending to go off-piste - I mean it's too much hassle hiring all the gear and carrying it and worrying about the state of the snow, the weather, the avalanche warnings etc. etc.

If anyone does decide they want to go off-piste I will advise them to hire a guide.

But if I understand correctly, the test case is not about going 'off-piste'. It is even about being a "Host" on-piste.

So if somebody goes out with a group (friends, uni students, met down the pub, met on a website :shock: ); and that person decides where the group goes, then to my mind they are doing exactly the same as a "Host".

It's a mine field!

The difference seems to be getting paid for it. Anyone leading the way but not getting paid for it isn't doing anything wrong.

This is all a bit crazy, ski hosts do a different job entirely to a guide. They don't teach or go off piste so they compliment the ski schools of guiding services not compete with them.
What's more they will be the same people who book ski school or a guide for their clients, so they risk biting the hand that feeds by stopping hosting.
I suspect that this companies hosting went far beyond orientation.

If anyone does want an off piste guide in Espace Killy, I can recommend a superb one.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 16:38:15 GMT

Have been on the Neilson ski hosting in L2A before, they do, from memory, Cruise The Blues, Race the Reds and something to do with Blacks!!

I did the blues day, 2 Neilson resort staff to about 8 or 9 guests, they took us on a variety of runs - I went along, as I'd been to the resort before but with friends who'd been several times, and as the husband had taken to boarding this particular holiday, I was skiing pretty much on my own and wanted to refresh my memory about the runs without heading somewhere on my won I was unsure of.

Went back to L2A with Neilson again last season and pretty sure they were still offering it, think it tells you n the brochure which resorts they offer this but I may be wrong, a phone call to them would probably answer that question.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 16:42:14 GMT

andyhull wrote:

smartski wrote:

AllyG wrote:
And as for myself and the group I've been organizing - I've got no intention of going off-piste, or encouraging anyone else to do so. And to be quite truthful I don't think any of us are intending to go off-piste - I mean it's too much hassle hiring all the gear and carrying it and worrying about the state of the snow, the weather, the avalanche warnings etc. etc.

If anyone does decide they want to go off-piste I will advise them to hire a guide.

But if I understand correctly, the test case is not about going 'off-piste'. It is even about being a "Host" on-piste.

So if somebody goes out with a group (friends, uni students, met down the pub, met on a website :shock: ); and that person decides where the group goes, then to my mind they are doing exactly the same as a "Host".

It's a mine field!

The difference seems to be getting paid for it. Anyone leading the way but not getting paid for it isn't doing anything wrong.

This is all a bit crazy, ski hosts do a different job entirely to a guide. They don't teach or go off piste so they compliment the ski schools of guiding services not compete with them.
What's more they will be the same people who book ski school or a guide for their clients, so they risk biting the hand that feeds by stopping hosting.
I suspect that this companies hosting went far beyond orientation.

If anyone does want an off piste guide in Espace Killy, I can recommend a superb one.

The Inghams web site seems pretty unequivocal:

"Meet the Pistes is a free orientation service offered to all Inghams guests in selected resorts. A great way to get your ski legs going and a good way to meet your fellow guests too! Don't miss it if you are travelling on your own, or if the other members of your group are busy on the nursery slopes or in ski school.

All we ask is that you can ski red runs confidently, but you do not need to be an 'advanced' skier. No instruction is given - that is strictly for the local skischool - but this is a great way to get a knowledgeable overview of the area, meet your Rep and fellow guests, and enjoy a great ski day out! Details will be supplied on arrival from your Resort Rep."

maybe thats why they are going after this other company as andyhull says..

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 17:58:57 GMT

Saw this thread changing course in an interesting direction earlier but didn't have time to reply.
The Morgan test case is interesting, if anyone sees any more about this I would like to read the details more fully.

Antipathy between UK tour staff guiding/hosting or whatever and locals, particularly ESF is by no means a new phenoma.

In 1985 our guides in 3V had several run ins with ESF, there was the same "you shouldn't be doing it - you aren't qualified" stance, even though at the least they all had BASI qualifications.

But next year in Les Arcs there was no problem ESF really happy that we offered guiding, in fact an ESF instructor took the new guides out for a bit of a show around early season (FOC). Think I remember correctly that there was more of a problem in Val D'Isere than Tignes as well.

So, in my view and experience it has been very much a resort specific problem. Last year with MW in L2A they seemed to have their guiding/ski hosting and relationship with ESF going well. This may be the key point - the tour operators relationship with the local ESF. ESF I am pretty sure is still a cooperative sort of business where each school is independent under an umbrella organisation. It is down to the school director to set the tone with that specific school.

With the forced opening up of the ski school market 20 or so years ago ESF got a shock, and in my view, did up their game considerably as a result and the employment of UK staff in France became legal, both as instructors and in other capacities.

But I have heard that some ESF branches really haven't adapted to new conditions with competition.

I am pretty sure that there have been attempts in the past to get ski hosts legally banned across france but these have fallen down - could be about the legality of employment. This time as safety is the issue it may be different. Mind you I would really like to see some statistics about injuries with hosts and, of course, compare this to injuries with instructors and qualified guides - now those would be interesting!!

ESF are in danger of really shooting themselves in the foot if they got this through. What tour operator would recommend ESF if they were banned from ski hosting? I'm sure they would be forging links with the non ESF schools in pretty much every resort.

I wonder if it is ESF central (the governing body) or one or more of the ESF 3V ski schools that is co-sponsoring this attempt?

Do hope they loose!!

As a separate point it is my understanding that in Austria the number of days that hosting is "allowed" is limited - certainly is with MW. Anyone know what the position is in Switzerland and Italy?

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 18:29:48 GMT

Perhaps they've been targeted because they recommend Next Generation, Top Ski and The Development Centre ski schools and not ESF?

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 18:32:40 GMT

andyhull wrote:Perhaps they've been targeted because they recommend Next Generation, Top Ski and The Development Centre ski schools and not ESF?

Could well be Andy

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 18:33:57 GMT

andyhull wrote:

The difference seems to be getting paid for it. Anyone leading the way but not getting paid for it isn't doing anything wrong.

SCGB Leaders are not paid, and some are qualified Ski Instructors. In Verbier a few years back, there was an awful accident off piste with an SCGB group. A snowboarder died. This was being taken through the Swiss Courts as (AFAIK) a criminal prosecution.

I'm not up to date on developments, I don't know if it's been resolved/shelved or will proceed.

I bet Swingbeep will know the answer. -)

It's about being seen as the responsible person in the group, it does not seem to matter where on the mountain you might be.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 19:46:51 GMT

As old Andy says, this has been going on for 20+ years, with guides, sorry hosts, being arrested at regular intervals.

The key is the being paid bit.

However the ESF should have licenced hosts years ago, running a pre-season safety course, with refresher courses held annually for the more experienced. That way they make money from it, and ensure that a paid host understands their role and responsibilities properly, as well as knowing that the skiers who are too tight to pay for lessons aren't allowed to tag along with the hosts.

It's a simple solution that would work for all sides, IMHO, and I've said this ever since I worked in Meribel in the early 1990s.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 20:17:44 GMT

In my view the whole issue is about envy and money.
ESF instructors aren't generally salaried but paid for the hours they work. So in low season those lower on the ranking don't get any work and see those unlicensed Brits swanning around and drinking in the bars etc.

The bit about taking money from ski school is I think a cultural thing. There is this assumption that Brits without hosts would pay for ski school - doubt if many would in my opinion, different market, different mindset, diferent culture to the French.

When I was with Club Med a couple of years ago this was brought home to me as we didn't join the lessons that were included in the price, nor did any Brits except the kids as far as i could see - even though some instructors spoke good English and English speaking groups were on offer. I have seen this before in french run hotels where so many of the French have lessons every year whereas the Bits tend to stop once the basics have been mastered, or have a few lessons, maybe a couple of hours of private.

I really don't think that many of the ESF instructors "get it" - ski hosting doesn't mean loss of money. Going with a host for a days skiing isn't about saving money on ski school - it is totally different.

Until the ESF lot "get it" they will continue to hassle and object around the idea of British tour operators offering free ski hosting.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 20:28:54 GMT

Maybe if the pistes were graded more accurately, and signposted more carefully, and the piste maps were easier to follow, none of us would need ski hosts/guides anyway :lol:

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 20:32:30 GMT

Being paid or not is not relevant. The French authorities care about the function, how groups are behaving on the slopes.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 10:02:47 GMT

The best way - and I know that in Verbier many chalets employ this method now - would be to have an agreement with one (or a few) of the ski schools in the resort and leave this job to people who are qualified to do it rather than chalet personnel for whom it's one of the few tasks and not necessarily a preferred one (responsibility is never enjoyable). Instructors are in better position to assess skiers level and when faced with endless questions like "Is it icy there?" they will give them valid tips how to get down the icy slope and they will be properly licenced to do it. This should keep everyone happy. I know for sure that if I need my hand held I'll want it to be done by someone trained to do it. Blanket ban of ski hosting unless done by a qualified instructors can be a good idea as it eliminates all grey areas, and precludes quite a few potential problems for all involved - skiers, operators and their personnel.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 10:36:40 GMT

I disagree with a ban on ski hosting.
Ski hosting is essentially very different from guiding and instruction. It is about companionship and taking advantage of someones knowledge of where the best snow is this week and this time of day and not getting lost or spending ages looking for the correct run.
I am in favour of the general only on the piste rules that seem to be being used now.
But, as an often solo skier, ski hosting is a great way to up my enjoyment of a week on the snow.
In my experience the hosts have been competent skiers, often qualified instructors with BASI and skilled at looking after a group of skiers (not losing too many). I know there will be low quality - unprofessional hosts out there, probably quite a lot, but this doesn't mean all should be banned.
As I said earlier I would love to see some statisitcs on number of accidents per hour of skiing in comparison with ski instructors.
Plenty of dodgy instructors out there - including the one I found at the bottom of the piste chatting to a liftie after I had rescued two of her class of kids who had got totally stuck up the piste and out of sight of the instructor. She hadn't even started to walk back - at least she had noticed some of her group were missing.
I do not think you can blanket...
Ski Host = unprofessional, un qualified
Ski Instructor = professional (presumably they are qualified!!)

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 14:11:42 GMT

Oldandy I agree Ski hosting is a great way of meeting others and finding out about the resort, if it is available I always take advantage of it, usually we go skiing as a group but I'm the token skier with snowboarders, its great just for a couple of hours to just ski without the faffing about with bindings/gloves/wristguards etc at every lift/after every run. -)
Whether Inghams or Neilson the hosts are generally enthusiastic about the area and willing to share tips about bars etc as well as where the sheltered/quiet/prone to ice pistes are.
Shame there's not more hosted sessions.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 14:26:13 GMT

OldAndy - sorry if this thread of yours got hijacked down a track that you described as "interesting" :oops:

But I think we're all in agreement that the ESF seem to want to be having their cake and eat it!

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 14:28:15 GMT

andyoneil wrote:OldAndy - sorry if this thread of yours got hijacked down a track that you described as "interesting" :oops:

But I think we're all in agreement that the ESF seem to want to be having their cake and eat it!

No probs - been interesting.

And I think ESF want a full 3 courser with choice of wines, coffee and a digestif...
All for 10 euros!!

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 14:36:28 GMT

OldAndy wrote:

andyoneil wrote:OldAndy - sorry if this thread of yours got hijacked down a track that you described as "interesting" :oops:

But I think we're all in agreement that the ESF seem to want to be having their cake and eat it!

No probs - been interesting.

And I think ESF want a full 3 courser with choice of wines, coffee and a digestif...
All for 10 euros!!

:P

And that may be the debate closed ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 14:40:53 GMT

OldAndy wrote:I disagree with a ban on ski hosting.
Ski hosting is essentially very different from guiding and instruction. It is about companionship and taking advantage of someones knowledge of where the best snow is this week and this time of day and not getting lost or spending ages looking for the correct run.
I am in favour of the general only on the piste rules that seem to be being used now.
But, as an often solo skier, ski hosting is a great way to up my enjoyment of a week on the snow.
In my experience the hosts have been competent skiers, often qualified instructors with BASI and skilled at looking after a group of skiers (not losing too many). I know there will be low quality - unprofessional hosts out there, probably quite a lot, but this doesn't mean all should be banned.
As I said earlier I would love to see some statisitcs on number of accidents per hour of skiing in comparison with ski instructors.
Plenty of dodgy instructors out there - including the one I found at the bottom of the piste chatting to a liftie after I had rescued two of her class of kids who had got totally stuck up the piste and out of sight of the instructor. She hadn't even started to walk back - at least she had noticed some of her group were missing.
I do not think you can blanket...
Ski Host = unprofessional, un qualified
Ski Instructor = professional (presumably they are qualified!!)

By "ban" I mean a ban on ski hosting done by unqualified personnel. I don't think you (or any guest) will have objections if your host will be a ski instructor attached to one of the schools rather than a TO's employee and many will probably prefer it that way and some will definitely benefit from it. I am not sure authorities will be satisfied if the host hold BASI diploma, their status should be better defined. Instructors teaching in the resort WILL know where the best snow can be found (actually any liftie/partoller if approached with this question will be happy to advise too), they will also be able to help you to get there. And you can just as well meet others irrespective of who is guiding - your chalet girl/guy or a girl/guy working for ESS/ESF or any other school. Why people prefer everything to be done for them by chalet personnel is beyond me.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 14:48:51 GMT

OldAndy wrote:

andyoneil wrote:OldAndy - sorry if this thread of yours got hijacked down a track that you described as "interesting" :oops:

But I think we're all in agreement that the ESF seem to want to be having their cake and eat it!

No probs - been interesting.

And I think ESF want a full 3 courser with choice of wines, coffee and a digestif...
All for 10 euros!!

Don't we all? :) It seems that people wanting "everything included" fall in the same category.

This is actually ESF job and they are taught and employed to do it.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 14:52:07 GMT

Sorry Verbier - absolutely don't want a local ski instructor for this job.

We shall have to agree to disagree on this one I think.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 15:11:25 GMT

Well you might have to pass up on ski hosting then and explore resorts yourself (this is what many people do anyway). If the law becomes more tight I doubt operators will continue doing it the old way - there are ways to enforce rules and stricter rules will be enforced. I have seen people being guided by ski school instructors and they didn't look particularly unhappy about it or dissatisfied. And I think majority of visitors won't even notice the change or bother about it too much. In any case "local ski instructor" is a vague concept as instructors come from many parts of Europe and they speak English too.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 15:17:43 GMT

We'll see.
French authorities have been trying to stop UK tour operators offering ski hosting for the last 30 years without success.
This is just another attempt - may work, may not.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 15:27:06 GMT

verbier_ski_bum wrote:Well you might have to pass up on ski hosting then and explore resorts yourself (this is what many people do anyway). If the law becomes more tight I doubt operators will continue doing it the old way - there are ways to enforce rules and stricter rules will be enforced. I have seen people being guided by ski school instructors and they didn't look particularly unhappy about it or dissatisfied. And I think majority of visitors won't even notice the change or bother about it too much. In any case "local ski instructor" is a vague concept as instructors come from many parts of Europe and they speak English too.

I dont think the issue is where they come from - what we (sorry to take the Royal) are saying is that the odd day out of hosting from a chalet guide is nice as an add on but having to pay for a full blown instrauctor is not whats required.

If I want a lesson (and I do sometimes) then I pay for an instructor

If I want to wander around the ski area on my own (and I mostly do)then I shall

If my TO offers me no cost ski hosting that they've been at pains to say is at my own risk and does not feature any instruction then I may choose to use this one or two days in order to see what the seasonaire staff have found that I may not have in my one week in resort and to have a good day's craic with some like minded skiiers (equally if the group is full of Swiss Bankers then I can leave them and go my own way - as could they if the role was reversed)

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 15:31:16 GMT

Not hard enough so probably they were not serious about it. But if they are this time it's pretty easy to implement and I am sure they will do it. Lets see. But it won't change much for general public - someone will provide the guiding for those wanting it - so I don't think it really matters.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 18:10:54 GMT

Verbier_ski_bum,

clearly you have a different perspective on this, but I don't think you actually make it clear...

what is wrong (the specific problem) with a tour operator's host showing guests around a resort?

I do not need/want tips on how to ski, nor help how to get down a tricky icy patch. It's just a pleasure to ski with a group of people from the hotel, no pre-booking, no commitment. You join-in, you chat, you relax, you leave. (remember we are on " HOLIDAY" after all)

So what benefit could a locally employed "guide" add to a "hosted" day?

(it's important to remember we are talking "host" NOT "guide" or "instructor"; each have their own place.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 18:49:53 GMT

I wonder how much ESF would expect their staff to be paid for a day hosting with no instruction involved?
I bet they'd not be able to offer hosting at a price people would be prepared to pay.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 21:21:42 GMT

andyhull wrote:I wonder how much ESF would expect their staff to be paid for a day hosting with no instruction involved?
I bet they'd not be able to offer hosting at a price people would be prepared to pay.

Across the pond, it's common for the resorts to offer and fund "Meet the Mountain" ski hosts, who offer orientation to their guests. Perhaps this may be a model that France could use.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 21:24:54 GMT

If this is the way that French resorts are going to be micro managed in future then I probably won't bother to spend my hard earned cash in France. I will take my custom elsewhere and I expect many others will do likewise.

It is a double edged sword. Make ski hosting safer by all means by regulating it but don't ban it. Looks like protectionism to me just dressed up as 'elf and safety.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 21:28:48 GMT

bandit wrote:

andyhull wrote:I wonder how much ESF would expect their staff to be paid for a day hosting with no instruction involved?
I bet they'd not be able to offer hosting at a price people would be prepared to pay.

Across the pond, it's common for the resorts to offer and fund "Meet the Mountain" ski hosts, who offer orientation to their guests. Perhaps this may be a model that France could use.

I was thinking along these lines too, and I've seen it work well at places like Fernie, Squaw and Heavenly. But they are relatively small ski areas and I just can't see such a system being at all effective in the French mega resorts.

And all this is another reason not to want to go to France and spend my hard-earned where it is a little more appreciated!

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Thu, 1 Nov 2012 21:29:11 GMT

Across the pond they do a lot of things that the French don't. But then the lift passes are 40% more expensive over there.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Fri, 2 Nov 2012 13:57:07 GMT

andyhull wrote:Across the pond they do a lot of things that the French don't...

Andy, never having skied in the States I'd be interested to know what are the "things they do over there" that aren't usual in European resorts ?
Thanks.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Fri, 2 Nov 2012 15:41:18 GMT

billip1 wrote:

andyhull wrote:Across the pond they do a lot of things that the French don't...

Andy, never having skied in the States I'd be interested to know what are the "things they do over there" that aren't usual in European resorts ?
Thanks.

Mountain hosting at a variety of times/levels free daily, usually done by an enthusiastic local in exchange for free liftpass.
Sniffle stations on the lifts, tissues then 6 feet further on a bin to dispose of them in.
Friendly staff that slow the lift for kids/beginners and help them out.
Singles queues to fill every seat everytime reducing time spent queueing.
Smiles and helpful information when asked about suitability of terrain for your 2nd week skier daughter etc rather than the standard "Bleu" response.
Don't get me wrong I love skiing in Europe, size of resorts, relative ease of travel/cost, quality of food all are better than US/Canada but customer service skills across the board? With the possible exception of the Scandies the US/Canada have got that sussed.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Fri, 2 Nov 2012 16:52:00 GMT

All of the above, customer service is on a different level altogether. But that's why it costs so much more.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Fri, 2 Nov 2012 16:54:27 GMT

I do wonder if some of the perceived difference in customer service standards is purely a language thing?

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Fri, 2 Nov 2012 17:04:03 GMT

It's got to make a difference. In France for a lift attendant to come down the lift queue to find out how many are in your group so they can fill the lift bubbles, they'd need to speak about 8 languages. Even so it's quite evident that they couldn't give a damn if the lift bubbles are full or not, regardless of queue length, so I'm not sure.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Fri, 2 Nov 2012 17:26:52 GMT

OldAndy wrote:I do wonder if some of the perceived difference in customer service standards is purely a language thing?

In part for sure, also in part the American reliance on tips in the service industry to supplement poor wages.
In my experience tho the other side of the pond there appears to be more of a willingness to help, it is blindingly obvious no matter what language you speak if someone is a beginner/child/scared/uncomfortable as body language is not country specific, the American/Canadian contingent seem proactive in these circumstances rather than impatient.
There are of course exceptions both sides of the Atlantic.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Tue, 22 Jan 2013 07:44:08 GMT

Skiworld have withdrawn there ski hosting service, it seems the French authorities have no intention of waiting to hear the verdict.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Tue, 22 Jan 2013 13:47:51 GMT

Mark Warner's guys in La Plagne were skiing in 'personal' jackets/clothing this year...no company colours, no logos.

Not sure if that was anything to do with the situation.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Tue, 22 Jan 2013 13:55:38 GMT

andyhull wrote:Skiworld have withdrawn there ski hosting service, it seems the French authorities have no intention of waiting to hear the verdict.

I've just read this includes Thomson and Crystal withdrawing ski hosting too. "The French police have stopped a group of UK skiers out with their Crystal Ski hosts in Courchevel." 18/1/13 http://www.planetski.eu/news/4580

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Tue, 22 Jan 2013 17:53:35 GMT

smartski wrote:

andyhull wrote:Skiworld have withdrawn there ski hosting service, it seems the French authorities have no intention of waiting to hear the verdict.

I've just read this includes Thomson and Crystal withdrawing ski hosting too. "The French police have stopped a group of UK skiers out with their Crystal Ski hosts in Courchevel." 18/1/13 http://www.planetski.eu/news/4580

Im pretty certain that all the british TO's put a lot of business in the hands of ESF, they better hope that there isn't a backlash from them.
If it were me i would start promoting and sending my customers to the smaller Ski Schools such as ESI, Oxygene and New Gen.

How long will it be before a someone leading the way within a group of friends gets taken to task?

Personally i look for this kind of thing from a TO as i can often be found skiing alone. I don't want lessons and i'm certainly not going to pay for a piste guide.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 23 Jan 2013 21:13:32 GMT

I don't know what ESF expect to get out of this, I suspect they will do themselves a lot of damage. It's not that they even want to offer a piste guiding service.

Re:Who offers ski hosting?

Wed, 23 Jan 2013 21:21:03 GMT

Had ski hosting most days last week in Sestriere from Crystal. it was great.

Maybe avoid France and head to Italy.