Latest posts for the topic "New boots, more lessons or both?"

New boots, more lessons or both?

Sun, 1 Apr 2012 19:02:59 GMT

Hi all. I came across this site a few years ago while checking the snow forecast for a resort we were about to visit, (was it St. Anton or Serre Chevalier? I forget.) Time to 'fess up' to being an intermittent stalker before I hit you with my first question. I must also 'fess up' to posting the same question on the 'Snowheads forum. I'm too lazy to re-write it so here goes with a little cut and paste job.

I own a pair of Salomon X-Wave9 ski boots which, performance-wise, I can not fault, but while they are very comfortable on my feet, they don't half give my shin bones some 'gyp'.

A little bit of background here. I am a 179cm/90kg aggressive intermediate skier with about 15 trips under my belt and while I have the ability and confidence to get down most things (eg le Tunnel, ADH and la Balma, Monte Rosa), I'm the first to admit that it ain't always pretty! I also like to ski fast, when conditions allow it. About 25 years ago I broke my right tib & fib (not skiing). The break has healed perfectly, save for a raised callus on the shin bone which is hardly visible but is very noticeable to the touch. Another thing I ought to mention is my conformation. My calf muscles, while being reasonably well-developed, are quite short, leaving me with quite a length of little more than skin and bone along the bottom third of my lower legs.

What seems to happen, is that as the week progresses the skin on the front of my right lower leg becomes increasingly tender, (it has blistered and broken in the past) then the skin over my left (not nobbly) shin bone comes out in sympathy. I wonder if this is because I am compensating for my, by now, painful right shin or if it has nothing to do with my compensating and it simply manifests first on my right shin because that's the nobbly one?

I returned from the Dolomites 3 weeks ago where, while still a bit painful at times, it was less of a problem than it had been in previous years. I was wondering if this was due to the beautifully groomed pistes, my improving technique, or a bit of both? Just thought I'd run this by you guys to see if I need to be spending my money on new boots, (would rather not unless I really had to) more lessons, (not averse to that) or both.

Thanks in anticipation, Gaz.

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Mon, 2 Apr 2012 07:33:30 GMT

Interesting one.
I wouldn't suggest new boots, but I would suggest taking them into a boot expert and discussing the problem.
Maybe worth also considering the type of socks you wear?
Lessons may correct a position if you have a particularly bad one, but I doubt that.
You may end up here with boot liners, depending on what the boot fitter says.
Don;t throw money at the problem YET, take advice first.
I wouldn't know where to recommend, other than CEM who sometimes posts on here and has a shop in Bicester.

New boots, more lessons or both?

Mon, 2 Apr 2012 08:35:58 GMT

Gaz C wrote:Another thing I ought to mention is my conformation. My calf muscles, while being reasonably well-developed, are quite short, leaving me with quite a length of little more than skin and bone along the bottom third of my lower legs.

Do you think your "short" muscles resulted from the leg break way back? May well be that the root of your issue goes back to then.

I'd be inclined to start with a specialist (ski/sports) physio to assess your legs (muscles, bones, flex, etc.), work out exactly what the problem is and go from there. You might end up with a programme of gym exercises and stretches that go a long way to fixing things.

A boot fitter should be able to find a way to cushion your shin while making space for your callus, but it does sound as if there's something more fundamental going on with your legs.

HTH... but you now have the summer to find a solution. 8)

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Mon, 2 Apr 2012 11:06:15 GMT

You need to go and see a boot fitter. Take your old boots, see if they can be saved and if not get some new ones. It really is worth going to specialist shop, unlike skis which get better every year boots show very little evolution. Better to spend 25-50% more than off shelf price as they will last you 5-10 years and makes huge difference to your enjoyment of skiing. Sounds to me like current boots are too big and you compensate by cranking them. Unfortunately this will never compensate for having foot and heel locked correctly in place hence blisters and irritation.

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Mon, 2 Apr 2012 20:50:35 GMT

Tony_H wrote:Interesting one.

My thoughts exactly. I didn't know how to answer but i don't think new boots or lessons are the solution....
Perhaps somehow learning to deal with and make the best of what you have. But i agree a decent boot fitter would be my first port of call.

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Tue, 3 Apr 2012 20:35:23 GMT

Thanks for the prompt replies y'all. Some interesting suggestions there.

Tony: I'm with you on the advice versus money front. Bicester is a bit of a schlepp from sunny Warrington but I hear lots of good things about Graham at Rivington Alpine, so I shall be paying him a visit sometime soon. You made a good observation about socks; I hadn't given them much thought before. I have a pretty mixed bag (Thorlos and Nordica), but oddly enough, the socks I seem to get along best with are the anatomic ski socks from Lidl (you know, the ones that are re-packaged as motor-cycle socks at the end of the ski season :evil: ). I don't think my position is particularly bad; I guess my biggest fault is a tendency to (still) over-rotate my upper body. I'm working on it. I do sometimes lack finesse and subtlety, preferring to 'let 'em run' and just blasting through the crud and over the ripples. As I said in my first post, 'It ain't always pretty'. Seems to work for me most of the time though :twisted: . I do wonder if this 'caveman' approach places too much pressure on the contact point between the tongue of the boots and the shin bones?

Admin: I have always thought about your suggestion the other way round, ie did the leg break occur as a result of my short calf muscles? I was 24 years old at the time and it was just an awkward, heavy landing on the squash court. If I had gone over the other way I reckon I would have got away with a sprained or twisted ankle. Unfortunately, my 'Guardian Angel' was on her tea-break: result=compound fracture :cry: . I can't help wondering if the leg would have gone 'snap' if there had been a little more meat on the bone. The break healed really well, I had loads of physio but the Achilles tendon is slightly shorter, resulting in marginally less mobility. Exercises and stretches have got to be worth a try.

Ranchero: I'm pretty certain that my boots are the correct (foot) size. I'm never conscious of any heel movement while skiing in them. I do agree that it's worth paying whatever it costs for a custom fit. It's what I shall do next time (next year if necessary). This issue aside, they have been
great boots and I just want to spend a little more time investigating the possibility of a 'cheap fix.'

So, that's about the state of play. Other suggestions have included shaving the prone area, neoprene or gel inserts (Snow Angels look interesting) and, bizarrely enough, pantie-liners :shock: (in my boots not in my panties!!!) I'm kicking myself for asking the question when my season is over; wearing my X-waves with shaven legs down the pub might result in a few raised eyebrows :lol: , but on the other hand, at least I have the rest of the year to crack on with the exercises. Much food for thought. Watch this space.

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Tue, 3 Apr 2012 20:55:31 GMT

Gaz C wrote: from sunny Warrington

Another Northern Monkey :thumbup:

We are as good as neighbours with me in Bolton ;)

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Tue, 3 Apr 2012 22:09:36 GMT

Have you thought about skiing with boots quite loose? If you are centred over the skis you shouldn't need boots done up tight (or so they teach at Warren Smith). You could try a days instruction with them as they look at the mechanics of your legs and style as part of the course. They teach at the indoor slopes. I know they do courses at Hemel Hempstead but they probably go to one nearer you as well. It certainly helped me.

And its an excuse to go skiing out of season :mrgreen:

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Tue, 3 Apr 2012 22:39:08 GMT

GazC

I would worry more about wearing pantie liners down the pub than shaven legs. :oops:

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Tue, 3 Apr 2012 22:50:17 GMT

My dad uses this stuff from boots called 'second skin' as he got really bad and sore shins, maybe they would help but def ask an experienced boot fitter

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Tue, 3 Apr 2012 22:50:58 GMT

Nice one, Brooksy. I knew there was a gag in there. I just didn't know what it was and which one of you guys would crack it :lol:

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Tue, 3 Apr 2012 22:54:03 GMT

Gaz C wrote:Nice one, Brooksy. I knew there was a gag in there. I just didn't know what it was and which one of you guys would crack it :lol:

Always here to help with peoples personal problems, normally its only for northerners. :thumbup:

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Tue, 3 Apr 2012 23:33:41 GMT

He is a northerner ;)

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Wed, 4 Apr 2012 00:03:58 GMT

Iceman wrote:

Gaz C wrote: from sunny Warrington

Another Northern Monkey :thumbup:

We are as good as neighbours with me in Bolton ;)

. Then you'll know the erm 'joke' about Bolton, Warrington, Asians and Scousers. Don't think this is the right forum for it though.

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Wed, 4 Apr 2012 01:02:09 GMT

felthorpe wrote:Have you thought about skiing with boots quite loose? If you are centred over the skis you shouldn't need boots done up tight (or so they teach at Warren Smith). You could try a days instruction with them as they look at the mechanics of your legs and style as part of the course. They teach at the indoor slopes. I know they do courses at Hemel Hempstead but they probably go to one nearer you as well. It certainly helped me.

And its an excuse to go skiing out of season :mrgreen:

I had lessons a couple of years ago in Folgarida where the instructor had us skiing in completely unbuckled boots. I found it really useful. I tend to start the day with my boots done up quite loosely and then tighten them up one notch after having completed a few runs. I loosen them right off at lunchtime and then repeat the procedure in the afternoon. It might be worth checking out Warren Smith's outfit at Chillfactore.

The whole thing about loose v tight boots brings me back to my sometime Neanderthal style when the 'red mist' comes down. I remember much of what I have been taught until, in certain situations I 'grow a pair of horns' and sacrifice style for speed. It's not much of an issue on the groomers, but I am starting to wonder if this is causing excessive friction at the boot tongue/shin bone interface on less well-groomed pistes?

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Wed, 4 Apr 2012 06:23:28 GMT

Admin: The break healed really well, I had loads of physio but the Achilles tendon is slightly shorter, resulting in marginally less mobility.

Right there is your problem. When you had boots fitted they did not assess your flexibility (how to spot a good boot fitter or not). You need some cork wedges under your liners and 1/2 problem will be solved. You also really need to work on stretching this out before i.e. next 9 months and during ski holidays. I would still suggest seeing boot fitter.
My advice go to Chamonix next year, 2 x world class boot fitters. Try wedges first (if that is what they recommend) and if no success then we get some new ones. Really need to try any solutions on first day as once you have the irritation difficult to remove.

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Wed, 4 Apr 2012 08:17:18 GMT

My son had a back problem a few years ago and went for physio where the guy also identified that he had really tight hamstrings in both legs. He gave him some exercises to do (which involved stretching his legs up the door frame). It certainly worked for him and he is only 17 so I would have thought naturally flexible but apparently this is a common problem. So perhaps a physio could help with stretchng that achilles tendon of yours?

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Wed, 4 Apr 2012 17:23:34 GMT

More often than not, shin pain is the result of the boots being too large. The boot fails to contact the shin with evenly distributed pressure from top to bottom. So first do a shell check to see if this is the case.

1 Take the liner out put your foot in the empty shell and with your toes brushing the front of the shell how much space is there behind your heel? 8-12 mm race fit, 12-16mm performance, 16-20mm comfort, 20-25mm extreme comfort, >25mm plant pot holder. Try and get someone else to estimate how much space there is, a torch and something round (marker pen, dowel, thin pipe, etc.) of known diameter will help with accuracy.

2 Find the centre of the shell and move the front of your foot side to side at that point, how much space is there on either side of your foot? For performance 0-3mm each side of the foot, for comfort 3-5mm each side

From what you have posted so far a performance fit would seem to be what you need.

If the shell check is OK check if the cheeks of the inner boot that go over the tongue meet when you close it round your leg. If this is the case your skinny legs aren't big enough to fill the boot. This can be fixed by adding padding to the inside the tongue using an Eliminator Tongue (I think Ellis Brigham sells them) and / or sticking (double sided carpet tape works well) some non compressible padding to the spoiler and if necessary to the plastic inner boot cuff. You should be able to get suitable padding from Algeos in Liverpool.

You could try sticking a doughnut shaped pad around the callus.

If this doesn't work then you need a really good boot fitter.

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Fri, 14 Dec 2012 22:11:23 GMT

Well, I promised to report on how I got on with my 'little problem' and now , with my first trip under my belt, I am able to do so. Some really useful advice there, folks. I invested in some of SwingBeep's Eliminator Tongues, and I reckon that in tandem with shaving the area around my lower shin bones, I have virtually solved the problem :) . As suggested, I removed the liners and measured the space between the shell of the boot and my foot. I was surprised to find that there was about 20mm of a gap in there, much more than I thought there would be. I was mighty relieved that they didn't fall into the 'plant pot category' and, being a tight northern git, decided that at GBP30 a pair from Ellis Brigham, the eliminator tongues were worth a punt. I fitted them in two minutes then wished the rest of my life away until the day of the Tignes trip.

The conditions in Tignes could not have been any more different to the bluebird skies and perfectly groomed pistes of my last trip to the Dolomites. Apart from one (almost) bluebird day, the visibility for the rest of the week varied between poor and non-existant and early in the week, despite the best efforts of the pisteurs, the piste could be constantly changing from packed to powder to ice to moguls. As you can imagine, my shins were getting a bit of a battering. The eliminator tongues really came to the rescue though, keeping my shins constantly snug in my boots, and eliminating the 'on-off, on-off' feeling that until then had been par for the course when skiing in such conditions. I was even able to crank them up a notch for some off-piste lessons and to play about under the lifts towards the end of the week. Brilliant :lol:

The penalty for this was some (ever so slight) tenderness to the skin over the callus on my right shin. The left shin was completely unaffected. I reckon I could live with that. I think I may cut a small hole in the eliminator tongue in the right boot; this would hopefully have the effect of the doughnut-shaped pad that SwingBeep also suggested. I just need to be sure to cut it in the right place. I also took a bit more care dressing in the morning, making sure that my socks and compression tights weren't crumpled and creased. I also followed CEM's instructions (not sure if they are on this site or somewhere else on the internet) on how to put on and buckle up ski boots pretty much to the letter. In the past, I have had a tendency to be a bit slapdash. Most likely 'coz I'm in too much of a hurry to get out there :D .

So, it's looking like I don't have to spend money on new boots :) . What can I spend it on instead? A pair of Movement Buzz skis is looking favourite -) .

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Fri, 14 Dec 2012 22:32:47 GMT

How good to hear such a positive result,Gaz, and am so glad you had a good blast in the conditions last week.
:D

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Fri, 14 Dec 2012 22:35:12 GMT

I've changed my mind gaz. You need lessons :wink:

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Sat, 15 Dec 2012 04:11:01 GMT

Sounds like you need to cut your compression tights. Boots should only have socks in them. Thermals etc should either be cut or folded back over the knee.

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Sat, 15 Dec 2012 10:56:27 GMT

Yes, I'll do that. :idea: I do recall reading somewhere that tights/ thermals/long-johns should be Capri style/ three quarter length.

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Sat, 15 Dec 2012 14:35:06 GMT

Gaz C wrote: Yes, I'll do that. :idea: I do recall reading somewhere that tights/ thermals/long-johns should be Capri style/ three quarter length.

Absolutely. Mine dont go anywhere my boots but keep the legs covered to just below the knee

Re:New boots, more lessons or both?

Sat, 15 Dec 2012 14:38:00 GMT

Tony_H wrote:I've changed my mind gaz. You need lessons :wink:

I'm not averse to a few more lessons :) . I've spent too many years hanging on to the back of faster and better skiers so my bad habits (over-rotation of the shoulders and lifting the up-hill ski when initiating a turn to name but two), are going to take a bit of 'un-learning'. I'm getting there but,with hindsight, it would have been better to keep up with the lessons.

A young guy at work has caught the bug and looks at me with a mixture of mirth, contempt and bewilderment when I suggest that he budget for lessons before beer and apres. And so it goes. -)