Latest posts for the topic "Slope grading"

Slope grading

Thu, 2 Feb 2012 10:33:43 GMT

Nelly posted something earlier about going on a blue in Canada and it being the equivelant of a euro red.
I was away last week with a mate who has skied in the States every year for the past 7 or so, and only a couple of times in Europe recently: ADH last week, Villars in 2011, and Avoriaz in 2008.

He is absolutely adamant that the euro runs are lower graded than American ones. For example, several blues we skied he said were reds in America, and a red we went on he said would have been a double diamond black over there.

I was wondering if this is the pattern, or if he was just commenting on the possible under grading of slopes in ADH perhaps?

I have to say that in ADH a lot of slopes should have been graded one higher; greens with moguls on and a reasonable slope should have been blue, blues which were tricky in parts should have been red, steep reds with moguls on in places should have been blacks, and a couple of blacks which my mate said had the most ridiculous moguls on he has ever seen as usually in The States the moguls run for about 100m and then stop, and you have a piste alternative next to them.

Just wondering like, if anyone skis both sides of the pond regularly and what they've found?

Re:Slope grading

Thu, 2 Feb 2012 12:03:23 GMT

I abolutely agree with Tony about this as an issue, not so much on the Euro v USA/Canada, but in the lack of control standards.

In Eurolandland, I have witnessed some slopes that have been graded, "just to say we have got one", whether that is a blue or a black.

Then, some are just downright wrong. The blue run from Stuben, headed for the lift to get back towards St Anton is clearly a red.

On the other side of the pond, I thought the grading was somewhat more consistent, but still saw anomolies, both under and over grades.

There are so many factors that could influence a grade. Two slopes of equal slope angle, could both be graded red, but one may be really wide open, with several "turning platforms", and might thus qualify as a stiffish blue. The other may have some narrow sections, and awkward bumps, and might just be graded a black.

The other key factor is the snow condition. Ice-type conditions, (marble, glaze, frozen ruts, etc) will change the value of the run.

Equally, perfect piste can make a seemingly difficult run into a joy.

Good topic.

Re:Slope grading

Thu, 2 Feb 2012 12:24:14 GMT

I cant comment on NA v Europe. However, the inconsistency in Europe is ridiculous and potentially dangerous. :evil:

In my view, resorts will always try to conform to a set mix of grades, preferably as close to 40:40:20 as they get, in order to attract as many skiers as possible. No resort wants to admit that it has only very limited skiing for beginners. Equally, none of the easier ones want to admit that there is very little for higher intermediates/experts ....... so they "massage the gradings.

Last year, I skied in Lech for a day with a bunch of kids. We stuck to Blues all morning and even the kids found them too easy - if these had been in France probably would have rated Green. After lunch, we moved onto a Red which started out easy but then hit a really steep pitch. I was not happy about having the kids on it but thankfully they managed fine. Given the easiness of the Blues, I would have expected the Reds to be similarly fairly easy - not striaght up to Black. It was really infuriating :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Because of the poor consistency, I am extremely reluctant to take the kids on runs that I have not done :x

Re:Slope grading

Thu, 2 Feb 2012 12:26:21 GMT

It is so because grading is done relative to the particular mountain and slopes are harder or easier relatively to one another on this mountain. But red in one resort can be marked black in another one, just because there can be harder runs in the first instance and it can be the hardest in the second. hence there is hardly any consistency accross resorts but at leastt some within one resort. There are numerous factors taken into account during grading too - pitch, exposure, traffic, grooming. I think accross the ocean grading goes like green, blue, black and double black. I also heard some resorts have double blue or blue/black runs but there is a pressure to upgrade those due to a higher possibility of law suits.

Re:Slope grading

Thu, 2 Feb 2012 12:30:42 GMT

Well I haven't skied in NA but was surprised by Val d'Isere's gradings (even though I'd read up beforehand and was aware of the under classification). The reds seemed about right as did the one black I skied but the greens and blues were all over the place with some very tricky sections for beginners. The only upside for beginners was the ability to come down the mountain on chair lifts and gondolas at the end of a session. I suppose once you reach a certain level it doesn't matter as you will presumably tackle any slope. However lots of people ski with families and friends and that often means a mixed group.

Re:Slope grading

Thu, 2 Feb 2012 12:35:04 GMT

I think this is more an issue of education and experience (of the skier), no?

With all the variables that go to make up a slope, and the fact that so much can change - even within a single day - I just don't think it's possible to come up with a consistent scheme. Slope grading will always be subjective.

That said, there are certainly "local" issues (as mentioned above, and Val d'Isere's famous Greens with moguls, etc.) but those can only be addressed directly (with the local TO).

You can make a case for ensuring that "Greens" are appropriate for first day skiers, perhaps, but beyond that the important thing is to communicate the fact that runs can and will vary.

No two "Blues" will ever be identical, and the same run can be in completely different condition from one hour to the next. That's one of the things that makes skiing so much fun though and it's one of the challenges we face as we learn.

Slope grading varies. Slopes vary. Slopes change from hour to hour - in what state do you grade it?

It's like the Pirate's Code; just guidelines really... 8)

Re:Slope grading

Thu, 2 Feb 2012 12:37:49 GMT

So on that note, are there any nasty surprises waiting for me in Saas Fee? I am a timid skiier, but don't want to spend a week on the nursery slopes. I understood Saas was good for beginners but have never been. I don't want to get halfway down a slope and get stuck because it suddenly morphs into something evil :oops:

Allie

Re:Slope grading

Thu, 2 Feb 2012 13:04:57 GMT

acarr wrote:So on that note, are there any nasty surprises waiting for me in Saas Fee? I am a timid skiier, but don't want to spend a week on the nursery slopes. I understood Saas was good for beginners but have never been. I don't want to get halfway down a slope and get stuck because it suddenly morphs into something evil :oops:

Allie

I believe you will be fine in Saas-Fee. It's many years since I skied there, but I can recall the slopes. There are easy slopes on the edge of the village, and also up on the glacier, where it's wide open and gentle. Stunning views, wear an extra layer! You can go up and down on the Funicular, and there is a revolving restaurant at the top. I found it quite a relaxed place to ski.

Re:Slope grading

Thu, 2 Feb 2012 13:23:24 GMT

Nothing will catch you out at Saas Fee. If you don't like narrow runs and a little bit of exposure avoid the blue that hairpins down the mountain.

Re:Slope grading

Thu, 2 Feb 2012 13:36:34 GMT

Admin wrote:I think this is more an issue of education and experience (of the skier), no?

With all the variables that go to make up a slope, and the fact that so much can change - even within a single day - I just don't think it's possible to come up with a consistent scheme. Slope grading will always be subjective.

That said, there are certainly "local" issues (as mentioned above, and Val d'Isere's famous Greens with moguls, etc.) but those can only be addressed directly (with the local TO).

You can make a case for ensuring that "Greens" are appropriate for first day skiers, perhaps, but beyond that the important thing is to communicate the fact that runs can and will vary.

No two "Blues" will ever be identical, and the same run can be in completely different condition from one hour to the next. That's one of the things that makes skiing so much fun though and it's one of the challenges we face as we learn.

Slope grading varies. Slopes vary. Slopes change from hour to hour - in what state do you grade it?

It's like the Pirate's Code; just guidelines really... 8)

GPWM as usual Dave.

Personally, nothing phases me as I will have a go at anything, but skiing with a couple last week who were slightly lesser experienced, they were somewhat gobsmacked at the difficulty of a couple of blues and the odd red, whilst they breezed down a black no problem.

I tend to agree though - conditions have a big impact. A choice of red or blue off a peak usually means the majority take the blue and it can end up carnage and bumpy, this is why I usually suggest the red option.

Each slope can ski differently from day to day, some are left ungroomed which makes them interesting as well.

I'd like to see some kind of grading for beginners and more timid intermediates so they know they wont struggle though.

One of the greens (IMO a blue gradient) into ADH village was hidden in flat light and when we skied it, it was badly moguled and my mate said it was one of the hardest slopes he had skied all week!!!

Slope grading

Thu, 2 Feb 2012 18:27:31 GMT

Tony_H wrote:Nelly posted something earlier about going on a blue in Canada

Did I? Or is there another Nelly on here I don't know about.

Anyhoo, I do remember being in either Tignes or Val D over the last fews years and going down a run that had changed from the previous year, it had either been a red and was now a blue and vice versa.

Very good point that Admin/TH made about blues getting mashed up and taking the red as an alternative, I ski very badly in mushed up snow (think 'I'll throw the washing in').

Re:Slope grading

Thu, 2 Feb 2012 20:57:04 GMT

Maybe it wasnt you Nellster, sorry. But I read it from someone recently.

Re:Slope grading

Thu, 2 Feb 2012 21:21:02 GMT

Do you think it will be ever possible to have a consistent grading system? There are so many factors that determine difficultly and some of these factors are variable....a moderate blue can become a stiff red with ice and moguls.

I don't envy the resorts in choosing a grading but having said that some are plain wrong. EG: Mira from the grand rochette in la plagne. Its graded blue because it is wide but my god its steep for a blue and moguled to hell after 10am....funny how its the only blue down off that lift ;-)

Re:Slope grading

Thu, 2 Feb 2012 22:02:47 GMT

There are no red runs in the US. Green, blue, (double blue sometimes), black, and double black. Green is a round symbol, blue a square, and black a diamond. At the top of all lifts is a piste map, and very often a mountain guide. The mountain guide is there to advise you on the runs and work out combinations of runs, or a route down that you can manage.

Re:Slope grading

Thu, 2 Feb 2012 22:15:35 GMT

Tony_H wrote:Maybe it wasnt you Nellster, sorry. But I read it from someone recently.

'Nellster' - like it :)

Sorry for the slight wibble.

Re:Slope grading

Thu, 2 Feb 2012 22:57:32 GMT

Should be NellStar, Shirley..... 8)

Re:Slope grading

Fri, 3 Feb 2012 13:30:32 GMT

Dave Mac wrote:

The other key factor is the snow condition. Ice-type conditions, (marble, glaze, frozen ruts, etc) will change the value of the run.

Equally, perfect piste can make a seemingly difficult run into a joy.

Good topic.

Totally agree. I am only a low internediate who prefers gentle blue runs, but I got down a black no problem last week, becaus it had great snow coverage. On the other hand, a blue we came down was very wearing because it had a long steep section which was just a sheet of ice and the rest of it was marbles. My dodgy knees were killing by I got down it, whereas they didn't bother me at all on the black one because the coverage was so good!