Latest posts for the topic "Whiteout conundrum….."

Whiteout conundrum…..

Fri, 6 Jan 2012 11:39:12 GMT

Hi,

Here's a situation I found myself in, and I was lucky to get out of, but I'd be interested to know what others might have done.

It was snowing heavily in thick cloud - a total whiteout. The sort where you can barely see your ski tips. It was blowing gusty. I was normally dressed for a whiteout - goggles etc, but did not have any special equipment with me such as a compass, mobile 'phone, length of rope……? I was skiing on normal skis with ski sticks.
There were very few people 'out skiing' but the mountain/pistes were open and I was skiing on a 'marked' piste although it was deep snow. The pistes in this location *normally* have orange poles marking the edges, however for reasons not too obvious - they were absent over the 200 metre section I was in.
The ground I was covering was a bowl shape with steep sides all round. Only the entry to the bowl and the exit to the bowl diagonally opposite each other was the way 'in/out'. I fell over somewhere towards the middle of the bowl, and when I sorted myself out and was on my feet - I could not tell which way to go. My tracks had already covered over. As I set off in any direction - I ended up going higher and higher and steeper and steeper up the bowl sides until I would realise that I had followed a 'bad route'. I'd turn around and allow myself to go straight to the centre - and then try another route - say - at 90 degrees to the one I'd just tried. This went on for ages and owing to disorientation, it was difficult to keep on trying new routes as I was not sure which ones I'd already tried.

Eventually - luckily - as I was doing another route - some people went whizzing past me in a straight line - so I followed them out.

In many years of skiing I'd never found myself in such a situation, a combination of factors leading me to a problem which only occurred because of the one final factor - falling over and losing my direction. Normally, you're in a more 'downhill orientated' position - so it sorts itself out.
I did not want to leave a ski stick as a pointer for fear of losing it to the wind/snow. There was no sense in placing anything on the ground - it would have been blown away/covered in no time. There was no hint of sun through the clouds. All directions were the 'same colour'. I had skied over this piece of ground maybe 500 times - but suddenly I might as well have been at the North pole.

Would a compass have helped? Maybe, but the problem is/was - the flat of the bowl was quite large - so you would have trouble knowing when you were in the centre and following a bearing from half way across the bowl represents a 45 degree error - so you could be about 90 degrees out of reckoning.
Anybody else been in this situation - and what did you do about it?

Re:Whiteout conundrum…..

Fri, 6 Jan 2012 11:43:23 GMT

GPS maybe but I never ski without my phone or hip flask.

Re:Whiteout conundrum…..

Fri, 6 Jan 2012 11:46:19 GMT

I'd have dug a snow hole bear grills style, and rode out the storm.

Or did what you did, and follow the next person to pass.

Re:Whiteout conundrum…..

Fri, 6 Jan 2012 11:47:36 GMT

I ought to add - it was not a simple matter of going to the bowl rim - as it either did not exist for 500 feet upwards - or could be a lip over into oblivion or topographically impossible to climb. Going to 'a lip' and working around was not an optin either as you'd lose sense of where you were in relation to the bowl.

Not sure that a phone or hip flask would help solve the problem - but at least you could have a laugh with somebody about it...... :-)

Re:Whiteout conundrum…..

Fri, 6 Jan 2012 11:51:54 GMT

Meercat wrote:I ought to add - it was not a simple matter of going to the bowl rim - as it either did not exist for 500 feet upwards - or could be a lip over into oblivion or topographically impossible to climb. Going to 'a lip' and working around was not an optin either as you'd lose sense of where you were in relation to the bowl.

Not sure that a phone or hip flask would help solve the problem - but at least you could have a laugh with somebody about it...... :-)

Phone will an app for everything......and the hip flask will contain a fine Cognac just to keep your pecker up 8)

Re:Whiteout conundrum…..

Fri, 6 Jan 2012 12:12:19 GMT

I have to ask, did this weather suddenly just close in on you, or we're you already out in it and Chose to ski?

If your caught out in it then fair enough, not much you can do other than get down as quickly and safely as possible. Or try dig yourself in and let the storm pass enough until visibility becomes clearer. Maybe you should of been more prepared? I'm sure you will be in future....

Whiteout conundrum…..

Fri, 6 Jan 2012 12:27:05 GMT

Firstly, glad you got out of that!

Meercat wrote:Anybody else been in this situation

Yes, many years ago in Tignes. Very similar to what you describe and eventually spotted another skier in the gloom.

Meercat wrote:and what did you do about it?

Never ski alone in heavy snow and/or poor vis.

Re:Whiteout conundrum…..

Fri, 6 Jan 2012 15:46:51 GMT

The first day of the new millennium in St Anton. Somewhere on the Schindlerkahr, no idea which way was up, down, or round-about! Stayed put for a very nervy 10 minutes or so, which felt like three hours, and eventually followed a group who were crawling along from piste marker to piste marker.

Very scary, called it a day, spent the rest of the afternoon in the Hospiz Alm!

Re:Whiteout conundrum…..

Fri, 6 Jan 2012 15:55:22 GMT

Adders has the answer!
Much easier when totally lost in a group.
In bad conditions stay clearly on pistes, look for markers and signs and which way others are going especially any ski school groups.
Beware - if choosing to follow others they may be as lost as you are!

Re:Whiteout conundrum…..

Fri, 6 Jan 2012 17:06:46 GMT

Some interesting replies.

I'm not so sure about 'digging in'. Knowing my luck - I'd get myself all sort of snug - and a piste basher would come along and seal my fate.

Also, considering that people trapped in avalanches do their utmost to get out from under the snow.....

And what do they say about survival? The best way to get rescued is to make yourself seen. Hiding would not help.

Then there's the advice to follow others.At 3pm - on a day when it's snowing and blowing - you can't be sure that there *will* be anybody else coming along; and the last thing you want to do is wait until it gets dark!!! (as well!!).

On that day I *was* skiing with somebody - but in a total whiteout it's just impossible to always keep eachotherin sight. We had made a rule to always wait at the bottom of the run for eachother. Which actually, they did - but when I eventually turned up they did say 'Where the *hell* have you been?'. Still - the anchor of security was there, and had I not turned up he would have been able to say that I was lost somewhere between A and B.

It's a hard decision between 'go' and 'wait and see'. If you 'go' you stand the possibility of getting way off track and getting (more?) lost, and into the bargain you could exhaust yourself going up and down the bowl - and then have a bad fall and be in real trouble!!!. The 'wait and see' worked for me and it's worked for others.

I'm surprised that nobody said 'listen'. Quite often you hear people calling to eachother in whiteouts. Not that it is very directional - but at least you'll know you're not alone.

But yes, best is to have a mobile phone with you. Embarassing as it is to have to call and say - 'Sorry - I'm lost 200 metres from where I started'. :)

Re:Whiteout conundrum…..

Fri, 6 Jan 2012 17:21:03 GMT

Meercat wrote:And what do they say about survival? The best way to get rescued is to make yourself seen. Hiding would not help.

Depends where you are. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't last too long waving your arms around in -30 temperatures.

Digging in would be a last resort, but one that would undoubtedly save your life.

Re:Whiteout conundrum…..

Fri, 6 Jan 2012 17:44:08 GMT

On a slightly lighter note about being lost in a whiteout ......
When I was working in Les Arcs a boy went missing, about 11/12yo.
He'd been with his parents and sibling in very poor visibility and snow and "disappeared".
For the best part of 3 hours he was "missing" presumed lost on the mountain!
Pisteurs, lift operators and police were informed ....
He returned to the hotel late afternoon very full of himself after a wonderful afternoons skiing (a tidy skier).
After the dust had settled and tears, relief, just retribution was over I asked him what he had done.
He was too small to be allowed on lifts unaccompanied and he knew this so he skied down close to the lift line and joined some others.
Got on the lift with other adults - again and again and again!
No one challenged him as they all thought he was with someone else.

Re:Whiteout conundrum…..

Fri, 6 Jan 2012 17:59:02 GMT

In whiteout conditions being able to alert others to you being in trouble is key, best bit of kit in those situations is a whistle. If you ski with a backpack you might find the chest buckle has a whistle built into it.
The international distress signal is three long blasts. (to be answered by three short ones). The sound of a whistle travels a long way.
A quick telephone call to your buddy would be the first stop though, just to say what has happened, least someone know's you're in difficulty and has a rough idea of where you are.

Re:Whiteout conundrum…..

Fri, 6 Jan 2012 18:08:10 GMT

Here's another whiteout story from two seasons ago - was in Engelberg with my brother in March. Excellent morning, but the weather closed in, and we decided to head down. Ski-ing along the home run, I became completely disorientated and mistook the piste markers, which were running vertically, to be horizontal.

Result: yours truly buried off the track up to my chest.

My brother couldn't see me - but luckily he heard my feeble cries for help and stopped! It was funny, in retrospect....

Managed to struggle out and 100 yards further on, there were some trees and orange fences, that made skiing much more fun again....

Re:Whiteout conundrum…..

Fri, 6 Jan 2012 19:44:11 GMT

OldAndy wrote:
When I was working in Les Arcs a boy went missing, about 11/12yo.
He'd been with his parents and sibling in very poor visibility and snow and "disappeared".
For the best part of 3 hours he was "missing" presumed lost on the mountain!
Pisteurs, lift operators and police were informed ....

The answer to that is to tag the kids.
In whistler all the kids in ski school are tagged with gps so a control station knows at all times where they are. Apparently i hear that if a Ski instructor 'loses' one child without even knowing about it they are informed by radio. Clever stuff.
It can't be long before they could put GPS tags into lift passes so the ski patrol can see who is on the mountain and where they are in such conditions.

I know some people would object and scream big brother but the safety rewards are immense.

http://www.whistlerblackcomb.com/tickets/seasonpass/kids_passes/flaik.htm

Re:Whiteout conundrum…..

Fri, 6 Jan 2012 19:53:09 GMT

Snapzzz wrote:

The answer to that is to tag the kids.
In whistler all the kids in ski school are tagged with gps so a control station knows at all times where they are. Apparently i hear that if a Ski instructor 'loses' one child without even knowing about it they are informed by radio. Clever stuff.
It can't be long before they could put GPS tags into lift passes so the ski patrol can see who is on the mountain and where they are in such conditions.

I know some people would object and scream big brother but the safety rewards are immense.

http://www.whistlerblackcomb.com/tickets/seasonpass/kids_passes/flaik.htm

The technology is pretty well there now in the USA with EpicMix

http://www.epicmix.com/Faq.aspx

Re:Whiteout conundrum…..

Fri, 6 Jan 2012 19:56:21 GMT

bandit wrote:

Snapzzz wrote:

The answer to that is to tag the kids.
In whistler all the kids in ski school are tagged with gps so a control station knows at all times where they are. Apparently i hear that if a Ski instructor 'loses' one child without even knowing about it they are informed by radio. Clever stuff.
It can't be long before they could put GPS tags into lift passes so the ski patrol can see who is on the mountain and where they are in such conditions.

I know some people would object and scream big brother but the safety rewards are immense.

http://www.whistlerblackcomb.com/tickets/seasonpass/kids_passes/flaik.htm

The technology is pretty well there now in the USA with EpicMix

http://www.epicmix.com/Faq.aspx

Doesn't that just track the last lift you would have used though? It won't locate you the way the Flaik system does.

Re:Whiteout conundrum…..

Fri, 6 Jan 2012 21:58:12 GMT

This is a good and important thread. Avalanches apart, a complete whiteout is one of the most dangerous situations a snowsports person can get into.

A compass? Well yes, but does your lift pass show N & S? I have never seen one that does. Resort and run knowledge is useful knowledge to add to the use of a compass. I have never carried a compass when skiing, and I don't know anyone that does, but some people will.

A mobile phone app? Late in the day, when the January temperature dros below -15 deg, batteries has a propensity to go flat. If that is the safety net, I would not like to hang my hat on that.

If you are lucky enough to be skiing in a low resort ~ they have their whiteouts too, you can see more clearl if you ski beside the trees, and obtain the benefit of reflected light.

I have been caught out many times in whiteouts, sometimes it was down to a bad mountaineering judgement, sometimes an unexpected weather change.I have been caught out on the wrong side of a mountain, when the Lift company closed it for the day ~ most times resulting in some expense in getting back, once in a 15 mile low level walk.

I have also taken a chance and followed two guys I judged to be locals, down a glacier, and they were not hanging about! That day I learned a lesson about skiing whiteout in a high area.

I have occasionally made judgements at the top, that this was not safe skiing, and have gone down the hill on the Gondola. I see no difference to doing that, and turning back off Striding Edge, in a whiteout with sheet ice on the rocks. It is a mountaineering judgement.

No easy solution.