James Grey "special edges"

James asked a very interesting question about using ski edges!
For a "beginner" he asks relevant questions and will progress far and fast!
There are different ski edges(however 99% of skiers are not aware of this).
Trencher, great question for you! How are racing ski edges different from general ski edges?

As you get better and better James you will want more precision or "bite" from your skis.

This is done by tuning your ski! Like a car you buy off the lot it is "good" but if you want it to be great you have to "tweak" it.

To take you to that next level of "pleasure" you will tune the ski. That is you will learn how to wax your skis and sharpen ( and modify) edges for your needs!

If ever you want to feel what a World Cup ski feels like just drop a line and I will lend you such a ski on your next vacation! If you want to know the difference, just rent a Porsche 911 tuned for the track and then compare it to your car!

It really is that different! One problem,,,,you have to know how to to handle those skis or else they will take you for a ride!!!

Think snow!!!

Thanks for the offer, but i think i'll learn how to drive the car before trying out the Porsche. I fear all you would see of me would be a grey blur and on my tombstone would be written 'Here lies James Gray, died with a smile on his face and -el diablo- skis on his feet - SIP'. Maybe one day I'll take you up on that offer though, when i feel 'the force'.

I'm resolute, I've had two forays into the skiing/snowboarding world and now i am learning Italian so i can move to Milano and be close to the snow! I can't stop till I have reached 'perfection' or 'traction' , which ever happens first.

Just to clarify though, carving is feasible on rental skis? Or should I ask the, no doubt by this time bemused, ski rental guy for 'carving skis'? duuuuude? Oh how they will laugh.

90% of rental skis are modern "shaped" skis thus,,,,yes they will "carve" if you know the magic sequence!

You do not have to ask for carving skis. All skis carve, even the old 1960's VR17s I have in my closet. They just carve with more difficulty, ha,,,but the memories they bring up on each turn!!!

Goodluck on your Italian!

Yer, I forgot to mention, modern skis allow us mere mortals to carve. :wink:

As to edges. I sharpen the sides to 87 and just debur the base with a diamond stone, leaving the factory base bevel as is. I only detune a few inches at the front and not at the tail. I like a ski/board that hooks up easily.

I would be really intrested to hear your edge recommendations for ski racing Pavelski. I want to start running some Nastar courses this season.

Trencher

Let's clear the air first about ski tuning!
It is a mix of science and art!
Science based on wax/glide field research AND
art which is based on watching ski technicians at WC, Olympics etc,,,

There is not one way to undertake "tuning"! Every person has a "little" special procedure that they do to answer to their skiing needs!

Every time I meet ski technicians I learn new options! In other words ski tuning is "work in progress"!

Finally with the modern ski there is a "searching" of various options to make the ski more precise and faster! New ways of tuning are being experimented as we speak!
What is very interesting is that ski companies and wax companies are now using wireless sensors in;boot, skis skiers and yes even poles to record the dynamic forces while skiing!

In 5 years there will be tiny sensors very much like ABS brake sensors in your equipement!

Perhaps in 20 years we will have Ipods which will receive "messages" from skis telling you when you are in that perfect ski side-cut curve!

What are some "discussed new options"

1. The detuning at tip and tail.
Trencher read your comments again. You mention that you tune edges at XX degrees then you "detune" tip and tail since you want a ski that "hooks up easily"!
One school of thought about detuning goes something like this.
With the skis so short ( 165 cm vs 201 cm for slalom skis) you want to use the maximum edge you have to get maximum "sharp edge surface" in the turning!
Also since there is no longer a three phase turn ( unweigh-rotate-set edge) the sharp edge catching ( often called nervous ski) is minor!
Also consider this! On a 201 cm slalom ski a 5 cm detune ( 2") has NOT the same effect on a 165 cm ski. Clearly the detune length must be shorter if perhaps no detuning!

A second issue which is very relevant to racers is the relative placement of the boots in reference to the ski. If you have a change look up the site Realskier in which there is a comprehensive discussion on binding placement! In the "old days" racers would place bindings forward from mid-point of running surface!That was on 201-210 cm skis!
Imagine now using the same distance on modern ski! The result would be counterproductive!

In 2005 we took 20 skis ( all same type, with same tuning) and we changed location of bindings ( skiers and staff did not know what changes were made. This is called a double blind experiment model! Expert skiers rated the performance of the ski!
A top level world cup skier can detect a 5 mm change of position! Imagine that!

Final issue to consider when tuning!

There is not one set of "conditions" on a given ski day! It actually is a permutation of; temperature, snow type,sun, wind, etc.... That is why technicians keep diaries very much like sea captains of yesterday and options that work are closely guarded secrets!
Now 98% of skier do not give a dam about all this. All they want is to enjoy themselves!

Some , like you Trencher want to get close to the envelope or like me I want to get the very best performance on my skis. That is why where ever I go I ask, "do you have a tuning rooms" and I tune my skis everyday!

Just finished a tuning session with Rossignol race technician and learnt a great deal about "new" options.
1. The first thing a race technician does is examine the ski with true bar, and magnifying lense since even World Cup skis have some production "defects" due to extreme heat and pressure used!

2. The second step, and this is very new to me is to round off the TOP layer at tip and tail! Yes I wrote the top layer! Using a coarse file the 90 degrees at the top becomes rounded! Once you see this done and see pictures of top level racers you quickly see why this top edge is rounded!
Look carefully at a racer! Note angle of attack of ski edge at tip! See how top edge does touch slope surface. This is for top racers! Typical skiers would never by in such a "radical" position! Most skiers do not need this "detuning top edge" but you Trencher might!

In this short string I can not go into all the tuning detail and I am not sure if it might not bore the rest of the readers, however I am production a DVD with the Rossi rep and couls send it to you once finished!

The last comment has to do with the finish procedures! For a hobby I restore old sports cars and I never could get that "lustered, perfect shine" when I painted my cars! So I enrolled in car painting courses and discovered the secret! It is in the final three steps using a wet-sanding paper with 200, then 300 finally 350 grit paper!
In ski tuning the secret is in getting from Reliable Racing a ceramic set of stones with at least 6 grades! These stones make the edges razor sharp!

To answer your question Trencher, my tuning varies according to where I am! Out west in Utah, Lake Louise or Lake Tahoe I rarely do a very fine 3 degree vertical edge and base is structured "coarse" since typically we get soft powdery snow.

While skiing in hard "eastern" blue snow I will take great care in getting perfect, razor shart 2 degree edge ( for some 98 degree)! Here is where I will take time to use my ceramic stones. In fact this procedure is so important that I have bought from Wintersteiger a great tool which is a ceramic disc mounted on a "drill-like" tool. In seconds your ski is done with a 1/2 degree precision!

My base bevel is done once every year and it is set for 1 degree! This is only for race skis like my SL 12, Rossignol WC, and Salomon GS! All other skis like Metrons, Fischer X9's, Rossi Z9 are flat!

Tuning is a life learning process, that is why I meet all race technicians I can find and it is ever changing! Hope this will be of interest to all skiers who want to get "just the exta" from the skis!

Thanks for the info Pavelski.

I do round off the tips, though that's the first time I've read that. When I say I detune the first three inches of the running edge, it is more of a graduated transition from blunt to sharp and no detune at the tail. So it sounds as if I'm not far out.

Hey, I always say 98 when I mean 88 as well.

Good luck with the dvd, look forward to seeing it.

Trencher

Nice thread guys. I live and ski in central NH and spend a lot of time on hard snow and ice. I like to ski always in a carve - can't stand the feel of skidding, so really true edges have become important to me. I have also done some woodworking and have sharpened a lot of edge tools other than skis. I have adapted a common techinique from chisel and plane blade sharpening to ski edges. I ski Fischer race stock SL and GS skis. I bevel the sides to 3 degrees (87) and leave the bases flat. After filing, I have diamond hones rigged to put a .25 degree bevel on the base edge surface. It's so slight that it amounts to merely taking the burr down and only imparts a bevel to the base surface of the edge over the life of the ski. On the sides I have a jig for the hones to create the same .25 degree bevel. In woodworking these are known as mico bevels. I first work the base after filing, then the side, then the base and so forth with hones of increasing fineness until I get and edge that pleases me. I get a couple good restores between filings with hones alone. It's a system that I have evolved over the last 8 years or so and gives me excellent results on both my skis and my son's race skis.

Cheers.