For anyone still unconvinced (even after yesterday's carnage in the French Alps - in which many incidents were reported as being caused by "ill-equipped" cars), here's a couple of short videos from Auto Express that nicely illustrate the advantages of winter tyres in, er, winter...
4WD Summer Tyres versus 2WD Winter in Tamworth Snowdome!
The full Auto Express article can be found here :-
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/37870/winter-tyres-vs-summer-tyres
Winter Tyres - Watch This - Buy Some!
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This is very sensible, but may also send a UK motor insurer into a spin. When they recover their composure they may declare it a "modification" and charge you extra on your Policy. Talk to them before you spend any money. Yes, it's a disgrace and nonsense, but insurers are still lumping winter tyre safety together with lowered suspension and boy racer kit.
To Create or Answer a Topic
Started by Admin in Ski Chatter 28-Dec-2014 - 25 Replies
Admin posted Dec-2014
The Admin Man
Admin
reply to 'Winter Tyres - Watch This - Buy Some!' posted Dec-2014
And another test of braking and acceleration on snow and wet roads...
The Admin Man
Far Queue
reply to 'Winter Tyres - Watch This - Buy Some!' posted Dec-2014
I think the reports on the news yesterday of the carnage and disruption to our own roads, caused by just a couple of centimetres of snow, should also demonstrate how unprepared most UK drivers are for changing conditions.
Msej449
reply to 'Winter Tyres - Watch This - Buy Some!' posted Dec-2014
I hope Admin doesn't mind me consolidating my posts elsewhere into one:
Why Chains Alone aren't enough
You're driving along a French road on the way to skiing in the Alps. Outside, the temperature is around 0°C to -2°C and the skies are grey. "We're fine – the snow chains are in the boot, so we're prepared. And we're front-wheel drive anyway." you say.
But you are already at a disadvantage against the French and German cars around you. They have their winter tyres on and you're on the summer tyres fitted as standard to all British cars. This means that when you brake, you'll take 20%-25% more distance before you come to a stop, even on tarmac. Now it starts to snow and after a while you're driving through patches where you're alternating between tarmac and snow. But you can't stop easily and anyway, the chains aren't suited to this. "If it gets heavier, I'll put the chains on – but no one else is, so let's see. I can't keep putting them on and taking them off."
The car starts to slide a bit on the snowy patches and you slow down to compensate, but everyone else seems to be coping fine. That 25% difference in stopping distance is now more like x2-x3 but it's not obvious. And there's a queue building up behind you. "Can't these people see it's snowing?" In fact they can, and since this is a regular winter situation, that's why they have their winter tyres on. They don't need to slow down until the conditions are much worse. And it looks like they're behind a typical English driver who seems to think that having chains solves everything.
Snow now covers the road, but it's not that deep and you're debating whether to stop and put the chains on when you approach a corner and slight incline. Each car ahead happily takes the corner at 50Kms/hr but when you do the car slides alarmingly. You just about keep it on the road but halfway up the incline (it can hardly be called a hill) you gently glide to a halt, skewed slightly into oncoming traffic, the wheels spinning. Further back in the queue, another English car coasts gracefully into the rear of a French delivery van and at the corner, a similarly unprepared young Dutch driver pitches quietly into the ditch. Your chains are still in the boot.
Q&A
Q: What are the ideal wheels in winter conditions?
A: Narrower and smaller-diameter wheels, with winter tyres to match and chains for the worst-case conditions.
Q: Is a 4x4 best for snow?
A: I'd rather be in a Ford Ka with winter tyres then a BMW X5 with summer tyres. The Ka will be able to negotiate conditions that the X5 can't cope with.
Question: What about just having chains?
Answer: Better than nothing, but not as good as having winter tyres and chains. While the locals will be driving round as normal on snow with winter tyres and no chains, you'll be sliding-round getting stuck, or worse, won't make that corner they have easily driven round. And in mixed tarmac/snow conditions you can't be taking your chains on/off all the time.
Question: If I have winter tyres, do I still need chains?
Answer: Yes! For deep snow, steep inclines and ice, you will still need chains.
Question: Do all four tyres need to be winter ones?
Answer: Yes. Do not ever mix winter and summer tyres.
Q.: What's the difference between 'snow', 'winter', 'all-season' and 'M&S' tyres?
A: In the UK, ignore the term 'snow tyres' and don't look at 'all-season' or 'M&S' tyres – you want proper winter tyres: To check, these carry the snowflake symbol on the sidewall.
In Alpine areas, and many parts of mainland Europe, the norm is to swap to winter tyres in winter. Chains are a last resort for short periods where the conditions are just too difficult for winter tyres alone. Where you get mixed tarmac and snow, winter tyres also have the advantage, obviously.
Winter Tyres
Here are some photos to illustrate the key differences between summer and winter tyres. First my A3's original-equipment 'summer' tyres:
versus winter tyre for the same car:
The obvious difference is that the winters have more and deeper grooves and 'sipes'. Not only do they grip snow better (actually, by trapping snow in the grooves and getting snow-on-snow traction) but also disperse water better. The smaller blocks of rubber also create more heat, also improving traction. Not so obvious is the significantly more 'grippy' compound used which starts to make a difference below 7ºC, which is useful even in a non-snowy British winter.
And here is the inside of the front wheelarch, showing the suspension and brakes alongside the inner side of the winter wheels/tyres. It's the passenger-side wheel, viewed facing the rear of the car.
Most conventional chains have a substantial, rotating element on the inner side of the wheel/tyre: Here, roughly where you see the 'Michelin' text. These are the winter wheels and tyres, which are 10mm narrower than the summer ones, and given the chains need 25mm, still leave enough space for the chain assembly to rotate as the suspension moves.
For our little Peugeot 206, we're fortunate that the narrower wheels leave plenty of space to fit chains, whether they're carrying summer or winter tyres. So it doesn't need separate wheels.
The premier manufacturers of winter tyres are Michelin, Pirelli, Vredestein and Continental, all of whom have a range of winter tyres for different types of vehicles and extremity of conditions. Details are available on their websites, which you should use to discover your local specialised dealer for winter tyre advice and fitting.
In theory, of course, fitting winter tyres doesn't cost you any more overall, as you prolong the life of the summer tyres by a corresponding length of time. In reality, you have to pay for switching them over every spring and autumn plus the up-front cost of the tyres themselves.
If you're lucky, you may have suitable wheels already fitted. In which case you can just get the tyre dealer to fit winter tyres and swap them each autumn and spring.
Studded tyres are only used in Nordic countries where you are driving permanently on snow and ice throughout the winter. They're not relevant for UK or Alpine driving.
How do I find out if my Wheels can take chains?
Look at the Owner's Handbook and you will find that in many cases, it explicitly excludes the wheels fitted to your car from being capable of taking chains. Take a look and see, or ask your dealer.
To check for yourself, you'll need to find (a) the tyre size and (b) the wheel size.
First, look at the tyre wall and record the specification numbers e.g. 225/45 Y 18 with the last digits [18] being the wheel diameter in inches, and the first digits [225] being the width in mm. Here are the details for my car:
Wheel: '7.5Jx18' - Tyre: '225/40-Y-18' = 225mm x18" - Summer
Wheel: '7Jx17' - Tyre: '215/45-Y-17' = 215mm x17" - Winter
The Owner's Manual may state the wheel size using the letter 'J' 'e.g. '7.5J x18' above means it's 7.5" wide and 18 inches in diameter. The winter wheels are 7Jx17 i.e. 7" wide and 17" diameter.
The 18" wheels that are standard on my A3 are not certified to carry chains - it's unlikely that there's enough space (between tyre and interior gubbins) to accommodate them. So my winter tyres are on smaller 17" wheels which carry 215 tyres - 10mm narrower. This provides the extra space taken up when the chains are fitted.
On our Peugeot 206, however, the standard wheels it carries are certified for chains, and so we only swap tyres round. We use the same wheels summer and winter, and alternate between winter and summer tyres.
Chains: The Key Issue
The main problem with chains is that when you fit them, the bits of the chain that wrap around the inner side of the wheel can foul the suspension or steering.
On my A3 with standard (summer) wheels and tyres, there's about 30mm of free space between the tyre and the bodywork, suspension etc. Even the thinnest chains need 10mm or so of free space, and cheaper ones may need up to 25mm. If you have bigger wheels on your car, then it may be that there isn't enough free space for chains to be used safely.
Beware chain retailers who either don't mention this problem or say "It should be OK." or "Try them out first." Clearly, you can't really try them out for real, and anyway, what if they do cause some damage? Remember, the issue isn't with the thickness of the chains as such, it's whether there's enough room behind the driven wheel/tyre – especially if its front-wheel-drive. In most cases, retailers haven't got a clue. Chains that seem to fit when you "try them out" on your drive in the summer may cause damage when you're driving round a hairpin bend, fully-loaded, with four passengers and a roofbox. Or perhaps they don't, and you then have to garage the car for repairs ☹ Great.
Look in your Owner's Manual and see if your wheels are certified to carry chains. For example, my A3 can carry 16", 17" or 18" wheels, with the latter not certified to carry chains.
There are lots of different chains designs and manufacturers. I use Michelin 'Easygrip' (see Michelin.co.uk) on our home Peugeot because they are relatively easy to fit; are relatively thin (<10mm); and don't need re-tightening after initial fitting. However, they are not really for prolonged use – more to get you out of a tight spot when your winter tyres can't cope. On the other car that goes down to the Alps, we carry conventional metal chains, which are better if you have to drive for any distance (although you then have the clearance problem, obviously).
Incidental Advice
Be Prepared: Fitting chains outdoors, in the snow, at night can be a nightmare. It will help if you carry a mat to kneel on, torch and gloves and have them to hand along with the chains. Try fitting them at home first. If it snows at home, it may be worth trying them out.
Screenwash: If you're going on a long journey in winter, especially down to the Alps, completely empty the reservoir, pipes and nozzles of any diluted screen wash and refill with 100% concentrate. Otherwise the pipes and nozzles will freeze.
Boots: Also have a spare pair of boots to hand when driving, so you can go out in the snow and change back into dry driving shoes when you return.
Why Chains Alone aren't enough
You're driving along a French road on the way to skiing in the Alps. Outside, the temperature is around 0°C to -2°C and the skies are grey. "We're fine – the snow chains are in the boot, so we're prepared. And we're front-wheel drive anyway." you say.
But you are already at a disadvantage against the French and German cars around you. They have their winter tyres on and you're on the summer tyres fitted as standard to all British cars. This means that when you brake, you'll take 20%-25% more distance before you come to a stop, even on tarmac. Now it starts to snow and after a while you're driving through patches where you're alternating between tarmac and snow. But you can't stop easily and anyway, the chains aren't suited to this. "If it gets heavier, I'll put the chains on – but no one else is, so let's see. I can't keep putting them on and taking them off."
The car starts to slide a bit on the snowy patches and you slow down to compensate, but everyone else seems to be coping fine. That 25% difference in stopping distance is now more like x2-x3 but it's not obvious. And there's a queue building up behind you. "Can't these people see it's snowing?" In fact they can, and since this is a regular winter situation, that's why they have their winter tyres on. They don't need to slow down until the conditions are much worse. And it looks like they're behind a typical English driver who seems to think that having chains solves everything.
Snow now covers the road, but it's not that deep and you're debating whether to stop and put the chains on when you approach a corner and slight incline. Each car ahead happily takes the corner at 50Kms/hr but when you do the car slides alarmingly. You just about keep it on the road but halfway up the incline (it can hardly be called a hill) you gently glide to a halt, skewed slightly into oncoming traffic, the wheels spinning. Further back in the queue, another English car coasts gracefully into the rear of a French delivery van and at the corner, a similarly unprepared young Dutch driver pitches quietly into the ditch. Your chains are still in the boot.
Q&A
Q: What are the ideal wheels in winter conditions?
A: Narrower and smaller-diameter wheels, with winter tyres to match and chains for the worst-case conditions.
Q: Is a 4x4 best for snow?
A: I'd rather be in a Ford Ka with winter tyres then a BMW X5 with summer tyres. The Ka will be able to negotiate conditions that the X5 can't cope with.
Question: What about just having chains?
Answer: Better than nothing, but not as good as having winter tyres and chains. While the locals will be driving round as normal on snow with winter tyres and no chains, you'll be sliding-round getting stuck, or worse, won't make that corner they have easily driven round. And in mixed tarmac/snow conditions you can't be taking your chains on/off all the time.
Question: If I have winter tyres, do I still need chains?
Answer: Yes! For deep snow, steep inclines and ice, you will still need chains.
Question: Do all four tyres need to be winter ones?
Answer: Yes. Do not ever mix winter and summer tyres.
Q.: What's the difference between 'snow', 'winter', 'all-season' and 'M&S' tyres?
A: In the UK, ignore the term 'snow tyres' and don't look at 'all-season' or 'M&S' tyres – you want proper winter tyres: To check, these carry the snowflake symbol on the sidewall.
In Alpine areas, and many parts of mainland Europe, the norm is to swap to winter tyres in winter. Chains are a last resort for short periods where the conditions are just too difficult for winter tyres alone. Where you get mixed tarmac and snow, winter tyres also have the advantage, obviously.
Winter Tyres
Here are some photos to illustrate the key differences between summer and winter tyres. First my A3's original-equipment 'summer' tyres:
versus winter tyre for the same car:
The obvious difference is that the winters have more and deeper grooves and 'sipes'. Not only do they grip snow better (actually, by trapping snow in the grooves and getting snow-on-snow traction) but also disperse water better. The smaller blocks of rubber also create more heat, also improving traction. Not so obvious is the significantly more 'grippy' compound used which starts to make a difference below 7ºC, which is useful even in a non-snowy British winter.
And here is the inside of the front wheelarch, showing the suspension and brakes alongside the inner side of the winter wheels/tyres. It's the passenger-side wheel, viewed facing the rear of the car.
Most conventional chains have a substantial, rotating element on the inner side of the wheel/tyre: Here, roughly where you see the 'Michelin' text. These are the winter wheels and tyres, which are 10mm narrower than the summer ones, and given the chains need 25mm, still leave enough space for the chain assembly to rotate as the suspension moves.
For our little Peugeot 206, we're fortunate that the narrower wheels leave plenty of space to fit chains, whether they're carrying summer or winter tyres. So it doesn't need separate wheels.
The premier manufacturers of winter tyres are Michelin, Pirelli, Vredestein and Continental, all of whom have a range of winter tyres for different types of vehicles and extremity of conditions. Details are available on their websites, which you should use to discover your local specialised dealer for winter tyre advice and fitting.
In theory, of course, fitting winter tyres doesn't cost you any more overall, as you prolong the life of the summer tyres by a corresponding length of time. In reality, you have to pay for switching them over every spring and autumn plus the up-front cost of the tyres themselves.
If you're lucky, you may have suitable wheels already fitted. In which case you can just get the tyre dealer to fit winter tyres and swap them each autumn and spring.
Studded tyres are only used in Nordic countries where you are driving permanently on snow and ice throughout the winter. They're not relevant for UK or Alpine driving.
How do I find out if my Wheels can take chains?
Look at the Owner's Handbook and you will find that in many cases, it explicitly excludes the wheels fitted to your car from being capable of taking chains. Take a look and see, or ask your dealer.
To check for yourself, you'll need to find (a) the tyre size and (b) the wheel size.
First, look at the tyre wall and record the specification numbers e.g. 225/45 Y 18 with the last digits [18] being the wheel diameter in inches, and the first digits [225] being the width in mm. Here are the details for my car:
Wheel: '7.5Jx18' - Tyre: '225/40-Y-18' = 225mm x18" - Summer
Wheel: '7Jx17' - Tyre: '215/45-Y-17' = 215mm x17" - Winter
The Owner's Manual may state the wheel size using the letter 'J' 'e.g. '7.5J x18' above means it's 7.5" wide and 18 inches in diameter. The winter wheels are 7Jx17 i.e. 7" wide and 17" diameter.
The 18" wheels that are standard on my A3 are not certified to carry chains - it's unlikely that there's enough space (between tyre and interior gubbins) to accommodate them. So my winter tyres are on smaller 17" wheels which carry 215 tyres - 10mm narrower. This provides the extra space taken up when the chains are fitted.
On our Peugeot 206, however, the standard wheels it carries are certified for chains, and so we only swap tyres round. We use the same wheels summer and winter, and alternate between winter and summer tyres.
Chains: The Key Issue
The main problem with chains is that when you fit them, the bits of the chain that wrap around the inner side of the wheel can foul the suspension or steering.
On my A3 with standard (summer) wheels and tyres, there's about 30mm of free space between the tyre and the bodywork, suspension etc. Even the thinnest chains need 10mm or so of free space, and cheaper ones may need up to 25mm. If you have bigger wheels on your car, then it may be that there isn't enough free space for chains to be used safely.
Beware chain retailers who either don't mention this problem or say "It should be OK." or "Try them out first." Clearly, you can't really try them out for real, and anyway, what if they do cause some damage? Remember, the issue isn't with the thickness of the chains as such, it's whether there's enough room behind the driven wheel/tyre – especially if its front-wheel-drive. In most cases, retailers haven't got a clue. Chains that seem to fit when you "try them out" on your drive in the summer may cause damage when you're driving round a hairpin bend, fully-loaded, with four passengers and a roofbox. Or perhaps they don't, and you then have to garage the car for repairs ☹ Great.
Look in your Owner's Manual and see if your wheels are certified to carry chains. For example, my A3 can carry 16", 17" or 18" wheels, with the latter not certified to carry chains.
There are lots of different chains designs and manufacturers. I use Michelin 'Easygrip' (see Michelin.co.uk) on our home Peugeot because they are relatively easy to fit; are relatively thin (<10mm); and don't need re-tightening after initial fitting. However, they are not really for prolonged use – more to get you out of a tight spot when your winter tyres can't cope. On the other car that goes down to the Alps, we carry conventional metal chains, which are better if you have to drive for any distance (although you then have the clearance problem, obviously).
Incidental Advice
Be Prepared: Fitting chains outdoors, in the snow, at night can be a nightmare. It will help if you carry a mat to kneel on, torch and gloves and have them to hand along with the chains. Try fitting them at home first. If it snows at home, it may be worth trying them out.
Screenwash: If you're going on a long journey in winter, especially down to the Alps, completely empty the reservoir, pipes and nozzles of any diluted screen wash and refill with 100% concentrate. Otherwise the pipes and nozzles will freeze.
Boots: Also have a spare pair of boots to hand when driving, so you can go out in the snow and change back into dry driving shoes when you return.
Edited 1 time. Last update at 28-Dec-2014
Bandit
reply to 'Winter Tyres - Watch This - Buy Some!' posted Dec-2014
msej449 wrote:
Q: What are the ideal wheels in winter conditions?
A: Narrower and smaller-diameter wheels, with winter tyres to match and chains for the worst-case conditions.
This is very sensible, but may also send a UK motor insurer into a spin. When they recover their composure they may declare it a "modification" and charge you extra on your Policy. Talk to them before you spend any money. Yes, it's a disgrace and nonsense, but insurers are still lumping winter tyre safety together with lowered suspension and boy racer kit.
Msej449
reply to 'Winter Tyres - Watch This - Buy Some!' posted Dec-2014
After the usual "How can we make some money out of this?" reaction from insurers, and a load of lobbying by the AA and RAC, the insurers came to a sensible arrangement: Fpr most of them, you don't have to confirm with them before fitting winter tyres, but it's worth checking - the exceptions being eSure, Sainsbury's (which is backed by eSure), Southern Rock, and Swiftcover.
The list is at:
https://www.abi.org.uk/~/media/Files/Documents/Publications/Public/Migrated/Motor/ABI%20guide%20to%20winter%20tyres%20The%20motor%20insurance%20commitment.pdf
"Association of British Insurers (ABI) Statement
Motor insurers recognise that some motorists may wish to fit winter tyres to their car during cold weather. Motor insurers recognise that, whilst no substitute for common sense driving, winter tyres can have a positive impact on improving road safety.
To assist in reducing potential uncertainty, the ABI has produced a commitment setting out the position of a number of named motor insurers in respect of the impact on insurance premiums of fitting winter tyres to your car.
It's important to check the list of insurers as some require that you inform them if winter tyres are fitted even though there is no effect on premiums or cover.
The insurers named below do not require the payment of any additional premium if
customers decide to fit winter tyres to their cars, provided that the tyres meet, and are
fitted in accordance with, the relevant vehicle manufacturers' specifications and are in
a roadworthy condition whilst in use."
The list is at:
https://www.abi.org.uk/~/media/Files/Documents/Publications/Public/Migrated/Motor/ABI%20guide%20to%20winter%20tyres%20The%20motor%20insurance%20commitment.pdf
"Association of British Insurers (ABI) Statement
Motor insurers recognise that some motorists may wish to fit winter tyres to their car during cold weather. Motor insurers recognise that, whilst no substitute for common sense driving, winter tyres can have a positive impact on improving road safety.
To assist in reducing potential uncertainty, the ABI has produced a commitment setting out the position of a number of named motor insurers in respect of the impact on insurance premiums of fitting winter tyres to your car.
It's important to check the list of insurers as some require that you inform them if winter tyres are fitted even though there is no effect on premiums or cover.
The insurers named below do not require the payment of any additional premium if
customers decide to fit winter tyres to their cars, provided that the tyres meet, and are
fitted in accordance with, the relevant vehicle manufacturers' specifications and are in
a roadworthy condition whilst in use."
Edited 3 times. Last update at 28-Dec-2014
Melbatb
reply to 'Winter Tyres - Watch This - Buy Some!' posted Dec-2014
We have winter tyres (live in France). We drove back home from the Alps on Saturday. There were very few cars with winter tyres - and not that many with chains either. Driving down the mountain was slow owing to the fact that people were completely unprepared - we saw one car in a ditch. Certainly not the last of the say. The snow continued until we were down to 400m (south of Sisteron). It was no wonder it was chaos. Most people cannot drive in the snow (we lived 4 years in southern Germany so are well versed on how to!).
We are thankful that we got home safely - and think the cost of the winters tyres was one of our best bargains. We wouldn,t do winter without them.
We are thankful that we got home safely - and think the cost of the winters tyres was one of our best bargains. We wouldn,t do winter without them.
Bedrock barney
reply to 'Winter Tyres - Watch This - Buy Some!' posted Dec-2014
Big thumbs up for winter tyres from me. We've been using them in the UK for the last 5 years, swapping over at the end each winter back onto summer tyres. We use them on our main family car, an Audi A6 Quattro. It's a pretty decent combo as the car has a lower centre of gravity than large 4x4s. It made life a lot easier for us on Saturday morning on the drive down to Luton airport. we had a lot of snow for most of the trip down from Lincolnshire but we were able to maintain a steady 40 to 50 mph. I'll post up some video when we get back home. we were passing lots of cars doing half our speed.
slippy slidey snow......me likey!
Topic last updated on 26-February-2015 at 16:55