Latest posts for the topic "Ski Lift Running on Solar Power"

Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 18 May 2010 07:38:30 GMT

Tenna in Switzerland is installing a solar powered lift. All surplus energy will be sold to the grid.

http://www.ecofriend.org/entry/swiss-town-to-get-a-solar-powered-ski-lift/

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 18 May 2010 07:59:46 GMT

Looks great, we are all Hydro Electric here but not as eco friendly.

Our lift at Les Masses is going to be replaced in the next year or so, would be nice to get a solar one

Hot and Sunny in Valais today

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 18 May 2010 12:12:49 GMT

There must be a tremendous number of solar panels involved to produce that much electricity (90,000 KWh). I was looking at installing some, but they are very expensive and they produce very low power levels, e.g. one about 2 foot by 4 foot only produces 80 W of electricity, enough to run one light bulb (and is also very heavy - 21 lbs), like the one below:

http://www.pvpower.com/sharp-80w-pv-module-NE-80EJEA-solar-panel.aspx

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 18 May 2010 13:33:48 GMT

Great idea,will the cables be able to support all those panels and a very busy day in feb with the lift. Just thinking how much each of them weight then and combine all of them plus the chairs and then the people on them chairs

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 18 May 2010 13:57:00 GMT

TheoBane wrote:Great idea,will the cables be able to support all those panels and a very busy day in feb with the lift. Just thinking how much each of them weight then and combine all of them plus the chairs and then the people on them chairs

I'd imagine they have thought it through.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 18 May 2010 18:02:06 GMT

I hope they have allowed for the weight of snow & ice that will lay on them.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 18 May 2010 22:38:38 GMT

brooksy wrote:
I hope they have allowed for the weight of snow & ice that will lay on them.

From the article:

The panels are adjustable and can be removed to clear accumulated snow.

Ally, I wonder how much more energy the higher altitude panels get not to mention they may get more days of sunshine per year than rainy Wales.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 19 May 2010 10:09:22 GMT

Isn't it a drag lift? I assume that will cut out a lot of the 'snow weight'. The panels will have to be kept clear to be able to collect the energy, let alone to counter the weight of the snow.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 19 May 2010 12:23:35 GMT

Mekka,
I had another look at the photo, and you're quite right. It is a drag lift.

There must be a mistake, saying each lift uses 22,000Kwh unless they mean during a whole year. I'm sure those drag lifts can run on quite small diesel generators, unless they are very steep or very long, which is one of the reasons drag lifts are more environmentally friendly than cable cars etc.

I would have thought myself, that a short drag lift would be able to function with only, say, a 5 KW diesel engine, and even a long one probably wouldn't need more than about 50 KWh.

If we assume that my guess of 50 KWh is correct, then one would need 50/0.08 = 625 solar panels of the type I described above 4 foot X 2 foot producing 80 Wh each. This seems much more feasible. The ones in the photo are in mini-arrays (or whatever you call them) 8 panels wide, only I don't know the size of each of the panels.

Does anyone have any more factual information on this? I am only guessing. I tried googling it but I couldn't find anything about the actual number of solar panels involved or the energy required by a drag lift.

I would imagine they must have a mechanical method of removing the snow from the panels, like passing under a rubber bar or something.

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 19 May 2010 12:44:33 GMT

Don't think the panels move?!

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 19 May 2010 13:10:09 GMT

I expect you're right Pablo, I am a bit confused about the whole thing. Well, how do they get the snow off them then? Do you think they tip over or what? Maybe something travels over the top of them?

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 19 May 2010 13:20:25 GMT

AllyG wrote:I expect you're right Pablo, I am a bit confused about the whole thing. Well, how do they get the snow off them then? Do you think they tip over or what? Maybe something travels over the top of them?

Ally

Just read the article

It's all in there.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 19 May 2010 16:10:28 GMT

Thanks Pablo
I did read the article, but it just says:

The panels are adjustable and can be removed to clear accumulated snow. The panels are anchored to the lift's cables and bear the entire weight of the panels.

I mean, who's going to keep climbing up there to remove and clear 625 panels, or however many there are? There must be a mechanical, automatic way of doing it, surely? Sometimes it snows continuously for days.

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 19 May 2010 20:29:02 GMT

AllyG wrote:

I mean, who's going to keep climbing up there to remove and clear 625 panels, or however many there are? There must be a mechanical, automatic way of doing it, shirley? Sometimes it snows continuously for days.

Ally

Shirley's busy, you could volunteer

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 20 May 2010 07:57:35 GMT

Bandit,
I have been thinking about this. It seems that they do measure power output with photovoltaic cells over the whole year.

So, if each of their solar powered drag lifts produces 22,000 KW hours of electricity over the year, and one assumes that there is an average of 12 hours of daylight per day over the year, and one includes the summer as well even though the drag lifts wouldn't be working (I don't know if they worked it out like this of course) then the answer to the drag lift power consumption problem looks something like this:

Number of daylight hours in a year = 365 X 12 = 4,380
KW of electricity produced per hour of daylight = 22,000/4,380 = 5.02 KW

So, I would think, if I am right, that these are only short drag lifts requiring 5 KW of power to run them.

I suppose, in the summer, they could sell the solar power back to the national grid, assuming they're connected to it.

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 20 May 2010 09:27:28 GMT

Planetski now has a small article on this, and they say that it is a chairlift! I think maybe the photo on the other site, is of the older solar powered lift in Westendorf Austria, which is indeed a drag lift.

http://www.planetski.eu/news/1692

So, now I am even more confused

I wouldn't think a chair lift could run on 5 KW of energy. Maybe the 22,000 KWh is how much energy each of the 3 new chair lifts uses during its operational period of, say 8 hours per day for 5 months. This would equate to 18 KW, which I would have thought would be more likely for a chair lift.

Maybe I will e-mail the authors of the original article before I am driven mad wondering about this

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 20 May 2010 10:07:58 GMT

I found another article here http://www.energymatters.com.au/index.php?main_page=news_article&article_id=890 That states

"Tenna is a small, quiet village in Switzerland with 109 inhabitants; but has become big news after announcing a rather unique project - a ski-lift powered by solar energy; the second in the world.

The solar panels for the Tenna project will be placed on top of the drag lift itself and will be adjustable in order to protect them from buildup of snow and to better track the sun, providing increased electricity production."

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 20 May 2010 13:13:39 GMT

Thanks Mekka,

I found another (translated) acccount on here:

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nevasport.com%2Fnoticias%2Fd%2F19569%2Fun-telesqui-que-funciona-solo-con-energia-solar&sl=auto&tl=en

I think I am not the only person to be confused. This account says that the processing capacity of all the solar panels is 90.000 Kw/h which gives enough energy for 3 lifts (doesn't say what sort of lift) to move consuming 22.000 Kw/h on average. There is a big difference between a full stop and a comma when it comes to numerical magnitude!

Natives.co.uk says it is a chair lift:
First there was a solar-powered rope tow in Westendorf, Austria in 2008, now solar power has been incorporated into a chairlift in Tenna, Switzerland - and manufacturers claim the panels will geneate enough electricity even in overcast conditions...

Edit
I have found the original German article and video about it, but unfortunately I don't understand any German! It does show you how the panels tip over though.

http://videoportal.sf.tv/video?id=ec1fa3cc-e4ec-4783-b56b-05d1da6af337

Second edit
I phoned the editor of natives.co.uk and she phoned the resort at Tenna, and yes it is a drag lift.

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 20 May 2010 14:21:21 GMT

There is a big difference between 5kw and 5kwh.
The first is the effect used, and if something uses 5kw and stays turned on for 1 hour it becomes 5kwh. And if it stays on for 4000 hours it becomes 20 000kwh. I left the thousand seperator blank intentionally, because this is one of many differences between US and EU.

And you can't use a solarpanel without connection to the grid to run a commercial lift. Think about when the lift stops, there will be power overrun, and on cloudy days, there will be to little power.

Just my 2 EUROcent

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 20 May 2010 16:23:18 GMT

Second edit
I phoned the editor of natives.co.uk and she phoned the resort at Tenna, and yes it is a drag lift.

Wow

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 20 May 2010 17:38:56 GMT

Pablo Escobar wrote:

Second edit
I phoned the editor of natives.co.uk and she phoned the resort at Tenna, and yes it is a drag lift.

Wow

Pablo,
You should know me well enough by now to know that I don't stop until I have the answer to whatever it is that is currently bugging me

And thanks to my phone call the editor of natives.co.uk has corrected their web article on this ski lift so that it now says:

First there was a solar-powered rope tow in Westendorf, Austria in 2008, now solar power has been incorporated into a T-bar in Tenna, Switzerland - and manufacturers claim the panels will geneate enough electricity even in overcast conditions...

But I still haven't really cleared up the issue of how much electricity the cells generate, or how much the T-bar uses. I am hoping that a J2skier fluent in German will watch that video and tell me what it says.

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 20 May 2010 17:42:58 GMT

If you are really that bothered just email lift manufacturers, contact details here,

http://www.leitner-poma.com/

and here,

http://www.doppelmayr.com/

For the solar panels use Google and contact manufacturers to find out how much their cells produce at that altitude.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 20 May 2010 18:02:09 GMT

Thanks Pablo,
That's very kind of you

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 20 May 2010 18:18:14 GMT

Surly with global warming the lifts will work fine but we will be grass skiing

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 20 May 2010 18:24:33 GMT

Ian,
I don't know the altitude of the Tenna resort, or indeed anything about it at all, since it's not listed under Swiss ski resorts. And when I tried googling it all I got was a whole lot of stuff about urinary problems

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 20 May 2010 18:59:33 GMT

You mean you do not wear Tenna pants

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 20 May 2010 20:52:39 GMT

I own knickers that cost a tenner, does that count?

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 20 May 2010 21:12:34 GMT

Ian Wickham wrote:You mean you do not wear Tenna pants

Certainly not, Ian, I was very good about doing all my ante and post-natal pelvic floor exercises

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 20 May 2010 21:14:19 GMT

Too much information. Know when to stop!!

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 20 May 2010 22:57:32 GMT

Pablo Escobar wrote:Too much information. Know when to stop!!

Strange Pabs....... you not interested in ladies pants

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 20 May 2010 23:02:36 GMT

Not when the ladies are old enough to be my Mother/potentially Grandmother

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 20 May 2010 23:09:58 GMT

Maybe we should get back to discussing solar powered ski lifts ....

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Fri, 21 May 2010 07:25:02 GMT

Pablo Escobar wrote:Not when the ladies are old enough to be my Mother/potentially Grandmother

Ah, the impudence of yoof. Every generation, just like the last

AFAIK Tenna is in Graubunden Canton

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Fri, 21 May 2010 07:48:23 GMT

I still haven't been able to find anything out about Tenna as a ski resort. It must be a really tiny one, and I don't get why they'd go to the enormous expensive of installing a solar powered drag lift.

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Fri, 21 May 2010 09:05:44 GMT

AllyG wrote:I still haven't been able to find anything out about Tenna as a ski resort. It must be a really tiny one, and I don't get why they'd go to the enormous expensive of installing a solar powered drag lift.

Ally

The article says that the panels will provide enough energy to power the lifts (ie. extremely low cost energy,only really the initial capital payment) and any excess will be sold back to the grid.

Still not totally convinced that you have read through it

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Fri, 21 May 2010 17:49:03 GMT

you just have to love how the swiss like to thinker with things lol

Though it does seem like a lot of money to spend on just a drag lift, how long is the drag lift

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Fri, 21 May 2010 19:15:56 GMT

Imagine this scenario: Its dumping, all the t-bars are full with skiers and all the solar panels are snow covered with little sun light penetrating the storm clouds. How long before the lift grinds to a stop?

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Fri, 21 May 2010 19:54:13 GMT

DanoT wrote:Imagine this scenario: Its dumping, all the t-bars are full with skiers and all the solar panels are snow covered with little sun light penetrating the storm clouds. How long before the lift grinds to a stop?

Most systems like this are still connected to the regular utility power supply. That way, they get credit for power they feed back into the system, and have power available when their demand is greater that the solar system can supply.

My local hill buys wind generated power. That doesn't really mean that the electricity they use is produced by windmills, but that they pay the higher price that wind generated power cost.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Sun, 23 May 2010 18:00:55 GMT

Wow this is incredible

The solar powered lift is also fairly cool.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Sun, 23 May 2010 20:17:33 GMT

Has anyone managed to understand the German in the video yet?

I still don't think it's a financially viable project. I mean, according to the article the solar panels are producing 90,000 kWh, the lift/s are using 66,000 kWh, so they only have 24,000 kWh spare to sell. Supposing they only got 10 pence per unit (kW) for this, they'd only get GBP2,400 from selling the surplus back to the grid.

And even this doesn't make sense, because I would have thought these were only the winter figures and they'd have a lot more to sell back in the summer, because I don't imagine the drag lift would be working.

Anyway, I don't know how much that fancy set up is costing the lift company, but I bet it's a huge pile of money because not only are solar panels very expensive, but also they've got to have extra strong pylons holding up the lift because the panels are so heavy, and they've got that very clever mechanism to tilt the panels over which would have to be maintained as well.

So, unless they're getting a huge 'green' subsidy in some way, such as a much higher price for the electricity they sell back to the grid, a large grant or an interest free loan, I don't see how it can pay for itself at all, or indeed where they're getting the money to pay for it in the first place.

I mean, drag lifts are cheap to run. So that a 50 kW one at 10 pence per kW would only cost GBP5 an hour to run.

I am all in favour of environmentally friendly improvements in ski resorts (and everywhere else) but this does seem more like a publicity stunt. I reckon they'd do more to look after the environment and conserve energy if they did something very simple like put thermostats in all the individual rooms in hotels, chalets and apartments. We had to leave our window open all night in our apartment in Courchevel because there was no way of turning the heating down and we were roasting hot.

I had a look on the internet and apparently PV solar panels require 1000 kW hours of energy to manufacture each metre squared of panel (although I believe this figure is reducing), so it would probably be several years before they even 'paid back' the energy used to manufacture them.

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Sun, 23 May 2010 20:26:12 GMT

Why don't you just email the ski resort? They would be able to answer all your questions without the mindless speculation.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Sun, 23 May 2010 20:30:30 GMT

Pablo Escobar wrote:Why don't you just email the ski resort? They would be able to answer all your questions without the mindless speculation.

Pablo, what a good idea

What's their e-mail address?

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Sun, 23 May 2010 20:49:13 GMT

Contact the Swiss tourist office here:

www.myswitzerland.com

They will be able to put you in touch with the relevant people.

Secondly, try Westendorf (Austria) who have a solar powered rope tow:

www.westendorf.net

Finally, use your common sense! If you really want to find out about something the internet is a great resource. All I did was use Google to obtain information... you should try it.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Sun, 23 May 2010 20:59:30 GMT

Pablo Escobar wrote:Contact the Swiss tourist office here:

www.myswitzerland.com

They will be able to put you in touch with the relevant people.

Secondly, try Westendorf (Austria) who have a solar powered rope tow:

www.westendorf.net

Finally, use your common sense! If you really want to find out about something the internet is a great resource. All I did was use Google to obtain information... you should try it.

WOW

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Sun, 23 May 2010 21:07:20 GMT

What?! I have been perfectly reasonable and helpful all through Solar-gate.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Sun, 23 May 2010 21:36:06 GMT

We could have a whole new thread which could lead to...Google-gate

wanders off to do some stirring elsewhere

Seriously Ally, go do something that will add value to your life.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Sun, 23 May 2010 22:54:18 GMT

Bandit,
I am doing something that will add value to my life, thanks

I am considering which new form of eco-friendly technology to add to our various businesses. And researching photo-voltaic solar cells is very interesting. So far it has only confirmed what I already thought - that there are better, cheaper, more efficient new technologies out there. But when they have improved the PV system, I might be interested. The hot water type of solar panels seem much more efficient.

Thanks Pablo, and it's okay Brooksy, I have an older daughter much the same age as Pablo and she's always trying to teach me how to suck eggs as well

I am very fond of Pablo (and my daughter!). And they are both definitely better than me when it comes to things like using Excel or designing web pages, or, in Pablo's case ski-ing I am very grateful for their help at times, when it's something I'm totally out of date with. And I think it's very nice that on this forum there are many people of different ages and with different skills and knowledge to contribute to these discussions.

And I can take a leg-pull as well as anyone else

Pablo, I was actually interested to see if you could find the e-mail address of the resort's tourist information office directly, because I had failed. I can do it indirectly quite easily, in various ways, like phoning that editor again. I am just amazed that a resort that none of us seem to be able to find anything about is splashing out on this very fancy drag lift. As someone else said, it would be nice to know how long this drag lift is etc. etc.

I will have another go at it on Monday

Thanks everyone,

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Mon, 24 May 2010 10:56:15 GMT

Pablo Escobar wrote:What?! I have been perfectly reasonable and helpful all through Solar-gate.

There's a solar powered gate too !?!

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Mon, 24 May 2010 14:27:06 GMT

I got an e-mail back from myswitzerland.com. This is what it said:

We thank you for your request.

Please contact directly Safiental tourism office for that question.

http://www.safiental.ch/index.cfm?id=55

The site is only in German.

I have sent them an e-mail instead, but I'm not sure I've sent it to the right place, because the website is indeed all in German

If anyone is interested, we have a new green subsidy scheme here which applies to solar electricity and I am trying to work it out. Apparently the energy companies will pay 41.3 pence per unit for energy produced in this way (Feed-in Tariffs), even if we use it ourselves, and if we sell it back to the grid we get another 3 pence per unit on top of that, for a guaranteed period of 25 years. It seems this will pay for the panels and the installation in about 6 years. But there must be a snag to this somewhere. It sounds much too good to be true. I will do some more research.

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Mon, 24 May 2010 16:16:01 GMT

Hello everybody, I apologise in advance for the length of this my first post here, but as there seems to be considerable interest in Tenna's new solar ski lift http://www.solarskilift.ch/index.php I thought you might like some further information.

Tenna http://www.tenna.ch/index.php is a small village with 109 inhabitants located in the Safien valley http://www.safiental.ch/ in the Canton of Grissons in south east Switzerland. As it has only the one ski lift it can't really be considered to be a ski resort. The solar powered ski lift is to replace the current one that was bought second hand 40 years ago which has to be replaced as there are no longer any spare parts for the gearbox http://www.solarskilift.ch/katalog_detail.php?auswahl=8&idp=2

The design of the solar module tracking system is based on research carried out by Prof Franz Baumgartner at Zurich University https://home.zhaw.ch/~bauf/ The solar modules are manufactured by Solar Wings AG info@solar-wings.li using solar panels manufactured by Sunways AG http://www.sunways.eu/en/ The lift and solar module cable system are being built by Bartholet Maschinenbau AG (BMF) http://www.bmf-ag.ch/ with design and engineering work being carried out by PAMAG Engineering AG http://www.pamag.ch/index.php This document (in English) gives an overview of the system http://www.bmf-ag.ch/media/SolarWings.pdf

Although most of the web sites listed above are in German it should be possible for non German speakers to get some information from them using Google translate http://translate.google.com/#

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Mon, 24 May 2010 17:26:28 GMT

Now, I had wondered about this being a little local hill. In which case the whole solar thing makes great sense. Big resorts don't do it cos they don't need to. This seems to be a wise investment as it should pay back at some point and potentially allow further investment.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Mon, 24 May 2010 20:09:15 GMT

Thanks SwingBeep,
That was very helpful. Are you connected with Tenna, or the Swiss tourist information office? I sent a couple of e-mails explaining that we were discussing this on J2ski.com in the hope that someone would join in with our discussion.

Thanks for telling us that this lift is the only one that Tenna has, no wonder I couldn't find Tenna listed under ski resorts!

I have had some problems with understanding google's translation, but I have managed to pick up a few things. Such as, I think the total cost of the new solar drag lift is 1,250,000 Swiss Francs which the currency converter I was using said was equal to GBP748,000. So the new lift is very expensive, and it seems Tenna is still looking for new sponsors to pay for part of it. There are, apparently 85 sections of solar wing, and 255 individual modules.

Sunways, the manufacturer of the photovoltaic system says that each module is 1.66 square metres and weighs 24 Kg and has an output of 240 Wp (Wp seems to stand for peak number of Watts).

I think the figure of 90,000 kWh for the solar system must be the energy produced during a whole year, and 22,000 kWh must be how much energy the lift uses when it's running. So, if the lift is running for 8 hours per day for 5 months that means it requires 18 kW of energy per hour to run. And if the solar panels are operating for 12 hours per day for 365 days per year then they must be producing an average of 20 kW of energy per hour. Which means that the solar cells are only operating at 30% of their maximum efficiency (since each panel is supposed to be 240 Wp and there are 255 of them).

I couldn't get the English version to load, so I still don't know how long the lift is.

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Mon, 24 May 2010 23:01:38 GMT

This is an interesting piece of engineering. To understand it, look at Swingbeeps http://www.bmf-ag.ch/media/SolarWings.pdf
Scroll to page 13. The Rh pic shows the support cable and the tracking cable, ie, a motor pulls at one end, and the panels change angle, in a single plane. At 100% sunnyness, the output is 200 Kw for a 1Kw motor power. When it is snowing, I suspect that the motor pulls the tracking cable such that the panels are lying in a vertical plane.
By using cable supports, the cost of individual foundations are avoided

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 07:54:55 GMT

Dave Mac wrote:This is an interesting piece of engineering. To understand it, look at Swingbeeps http://www.bmf-ag.ch/media/SolarWings.pdf
Scroll to page 13. The Rh pic shows the support cable and the tracking cable, ie, a motor pulls at one end, and the panels change angle, in a single plane. At 100% sunnyness, the output is 200 Kw for a 1Kw motor power. When it is snowing, I suspect that the motor pulls the tracking cable such that the panels are lying in a vertical plane.
By using cable supports, the cost of individual foundations are avoided

Dave,
I got that article to load okay this morning. I agree, the motor and mechanics that drives the tracking device is very clever, but it's not actually describing the individual system for the ski lift at Tenna - it's another one. So I still don't know how much power the Tenna one is producing or consuming.

But I did get the bit that says that by tracking the sun with two axes they get 20 - 35% more energy than by using a fixed installation. And it also says that they have sensors for time, wind, snow and irradiance and they can change the rotation angle by +/- 45 degrees. So, when it gets very snowy the solar wings can move to stop the snow sitting on top of them.

I hope SwingBeep gets back to us with some more information on this. I'd like to know how much money they will get for their 'green' electricity in Tenna, and how it works out financially. If there is a big subsidy for this sort of electricity we may see more solar powered lifts around.

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 12:42:23 GMT

Maybe we'll be able to fly to the ski resorts one day using solar power

http://www.yourrenewablenews.com/news_item.php?newsID=48581

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 18:01:48 GMT

I have been following this topic with interest.

Would a diesel powered motor not be cheaper and more efficient?

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 19:27:16 GMT

Brucie wrote:I have been following this topic with interest.

Would a diesel powered motor not be cheaper and more efficient?

Brucie, do you have any statistics to support the diesel alternative?

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 19:46:48 GMT

I am not in anyway connected to Tenna or the Swiss tourist information office, I just read Bandit's first post and out of curiosity Googled using the following search strings: tenna site:ch and "solar wings" site:ch.

The system is rather clever isn't it and if successful will hopefully make it easier for other small to medium sized lift companies to finance the replacement of their aging lifts. In the Swiss TV report one of the inventors stated that the system can also be installed on existing lifts so I don't see any reason why the large areas would not install it (providing its financially viable) Zermatt certainly has the resources and the existing lifts at Sunnegga and Gornergrat run from west to east and are not overshadowed, it might also "green" their image a bit.

The idea to build the solar ski lift came from Felicia Montalta http://www.suedostschweiz.ch/newsticker/index.cfm?id=25249&newsRessort=&newsRegion=&newsSearch=&startrow=1 she is leading a project to improve tourism in the Safiental. The existing lift is approx. 500m long, the cost of a conventional lift was estimated at CHF 750k the solar lift will cost an additional CHF 420k, total CHF 1.17m Tenna has budgeted CHF 1.25m, they can raise about 2/3 of this themselves (notice there is no mention of a bank loan, Swiss banks consider ski lifts to be too high a risk) and are hoping to raise the shortfall of CHF 450k through sponsorship, a donation of CHF 1k will entitle you to have your name entered on a plaque at the bottom station and you will no doubt receive an invitation to the official opening when the lift will be blessed by the local priest, well you wouldn't want to ride on a lift that hadn't been blessed would you? This will no doubt be followed by an "Apero" in the Pistenbeizli http://www.pistenbeizli.ch/

AllyG
90'000 kWh is only an estimate and is presumably based on the solar energy available at Tenna, your assumed hours of operation are way out, see page 2 in this pdf: http://www.tenna.ch/cms_grund_anz/upload/29_100_Winter-Info%2009-10f.pdf yes it does close for lunch! The night time operation complicates things somewhat. Switzerland uses "cost-covering feed-in remuneration" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed-in_tariff to pay suppliers of renewable energy, the amount paid per kWh depends on how the installation is classified and it is reduced by 8% every year, there is an online calculator here: http://www.swissgrid.ch/power_market/renewable_energies/registration_crf/photovoltaics/photovoltaics_calc?set_language=en don't forget that the output of the cells diminishes with time.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 20:18:45 GMT

bandit wrote:

Brucie wrote:I have been following this topic with interest.

Would a diesel powered motor not be cheaper and more efficient?

Brucie, do you have any statistics to support the diesel alternative?

I'm afraid not Bandit, I am relying on purely anecdotal evidence.

Perhaps Ally could tell us how many brake horse power would be required and an average diesel consumption rate based on energy required for an uplift rate of say, 200 people per hour?

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 20:41:17 GMT

Brucie wrote:I have been following this topic with interest.

Would a diesel powered motor not be cheaper and more efficient?

Brucie,
I'm glad to hear you're interested in this as well

SwingBeep - thanks, I am still thinking about your contribution (and trying to translate the German!).

A drag lift system powered by a diesel generator, or electricity from the national grid, would be much cheaper to build. But, in energy terms, the solar system should be able to pay for itself in about 6 years (less maybe I haven't been able to see their exact figures for this), and after this the energy produced will be completely carbon neutral. Whereas a diesel generator would continue to run on diesel - a fossil fuel.

However, I think the point is, as I said before, that the price of electricity produced by the PV solar wings and sold to the national grid will be subsidised through the Swiss national scheme (as detailed in the link below), so that it should be able to run at a profit to the community of Tenna that will own the lift, after a few years.

http://www.bfe.admin.ch/energie/00588/00589/00644/index.html?lang=en&msg-id=28572

It seems that all the Swiss electricity consumers are currently paying an extra 0.45 cents per kilowatt hour in order to fund the extra prices paid for electricity from 'green' or renewable sources.

I haven't been able to find out yet how much they will get for the electricity they sell, but I think it is probably about four times the going rate for conventionally produced electricity (the same as it is now here in the U.K. for new systems).

And the reason for this is that Switzerland wants to increase the amount of power they produce from renewable sources to 10% of the total, presumably both to slow down global warming and also to make them more independant of fossil fuels (which are running out and likely to become very expensive and hard to obtain). They also seem to have environmental problems with their hydroelectric power.

The costings I obtained for a hypothetical PV system on our own properties (from the energysavingtrust.org) reckoned that for a 2.2 Kw system, requiring 18 metres squared of solar panels, we would be into profit after 6 years after an initial outlay of GBP20,000- with an annual income of GBP3,570 guaranteed for 25 years. I imagine the figures are probably something similar for the Swiss system at Tenna allowing for the differenc in magnitude of the system.

So, what I am trying to say, is that the new solar powered lift would eventually be a 'cash cow' for the Tenna community, as well as a ski lift!

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 20:49:45 GMT

AllyG wrote:
So, what I am trying to say, is that the new solar powered lift would eventually be a 'cash cow' for the Tenna community, as well as a ski lift!

I can't see any maintenance costs in the rationale presented so far. I expect a solar system, with all those panels will be expensive to maintain.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 20:57:02 GMT

Bandit,
I thought about that as well. The articles I have read on solar panels say they don't require any maintenance and that they seem to be lasting longer (up to 30 years) than expected (20 years). However, I agree with you that the fancy tilting mechanism is bound to need maintenance, but since it's a newly designed system I don't suppose they know yet how much it will cost, and it may even be covered by a guarantee covered by the manufacturers.

I have had a go with SwingBeep's Swiss price calculator. I pretended to have a 2 kW PV system ready to go in March next year and it said I would get 49.0 Rp/KWh. What is an Rp? Do you think maybe I got a bit carried away and pretended to be in India or something?

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 21:01:42 GMT

Ally, I wonder if Rp is for Rappen which is the Swiss German word for Cent.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 21:43:16 GMT

bandit wrote:Ally, I wonder if Rp is for Rappen which is the Swiss German word for Cent.

Thanks Bandit.
100 Swiss Francs seems to be equivalent to GBP61 at the moment, so that makes the hypothetical electricity I'm selling worth 29.9 pence per kilowatt, which doesn't sound very much. Maybe it's because the pound is down at the moment. And I don't know how much normal electricity costs in Switzerland.

Brucie - why are we reverting to horsepower? I had thought about trying to calculate how much power was required by the ski lift using kinetic energy calculations, but I didn't attempt it because I don't know how long the lift is, how fast it moves, the vertical distance involved, the value to use for the friction of the skis on the snow, or the number of people travelling on it at any one time and their average weight. So I didn't bother. Once upon a time I used to be quite good at these sort of calculations. And I did in fact coach my older daughter through her A Level physics, and my younger daughter has just asked me for some help with her A Level maths mechanics revision.

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 21:45:37 GMT

For brucies idea, I don't think there is any immediate evidence to suggest that diesel will run out or that prices will rise dramatically in the near future. There is also the possibility that they could be run on oil from the local kebab houses (or similar). Many biofuels are useable with a slightly tweaked diesel engine.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 21:54:08 GMT

Exactly Pablo, and for a fraction of the capital cost!!! I saw a generator in Aldi the other week that would probably do the job for GBP79.99(13,280 rappen at todays exchange rate)!!!

Lob in a gallon of bio diesel from the Fondue Mahal down the street every now and again and bobs your uncle!!!

In fact, lets buy a couple of quad bikes, head over to Tenna and make our fortune. Bottom to the top - 2 francs guvnor!!!

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 21:55:48 GMT

Pablo Escobar wrote:For brucies idea, I don't think there is any immediate evidence to suggest that diesel will run out or that prices will rise dramatically in the near future. There is also the possibility that they could be run on oil from the local kebab houses (or similar). Many biofuels are useable with a slightly tweaked diesel engine.

That's quite true Pablo, I had totally forgotten about running the engine on biofuels. Thanks. But fossil fuels are still going to run out, although no-one knows when, for sure. And politically, countries don't like to have to rely on foreign energy sources.

Where I live, here in Pembrokeshire, we have recently had a demonstration of that, in that they have built a massive gas pipe line from here into England so that they can bring in LNG by ship here and hence avoid another unpleasant gas shortage situation like the one recently where the Russians stopped gas transportation to various countries.

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 22:12:19 GMT

Brucie wrote:Exactly Pablo, and for a fraction of the capital cost!!! I saw a generator in Aldi the other week that would probably do the job for GBP79.99(13,280 rappen at todays exchange rate)!!!

Lob in a gallon of bio diesel from the Fondue Mahal down the street every now and again and bobs your uncle!!!

In fact, lets buy a couple of quad bikes, head over to Tenna and make our fortune. Bottom to the top - 2 francs guvnor!!!

Brucie,
If I am right, and that drag lift requires 18 kilowatts of energy per hour, you'd only need about a gallon an hour of diesel, or equivalent, to run it. But I think they are hoping to make some money out of the solar panel system.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 22:18:25 GMT

AllyG wrote:

Pablo Escobar wrote:For brucies idea, I don't think there is any immediate evidence to suggest that diesel will run out or that prices will rise dramatically in the near future. There is also the possibility that they could be run on oil from the local kebab houses (or similar). Many biofuels are useable with a slightly tweaked diesel engine.

That's quite true Pablo, I had totally forgotten about running the engine on biofuels. Thanks. But fossil fuels are still going to run out, although no-one knows when, for sure. And politically, countries don't like to have to rely on foreign energy sources.

Where I live, here in Pembrokeshire, we have recently had a demonstration of that, in that they have built a massive gas pipe line from here into England so that they can bring in LNG by ship here and hence avoid another unpleasant gas shortage situation like the one recently where the Russians stopped gas transportation to various countries.

Ally

I doubt they will totally run out in our life time. Sure they will become more scarce but run out they will not. Vast quantities in deep water pools and previous wells which were not financial viable will become practical to explore.

Countries have to rely on foreign energy sources. I don't expect that Luxembourg, for example, will ever be able to create enough for its needs. Even the big oil producing countries buy oil as well as trading out their own.

They could also use more diesel than required and sell the excess back to the grid.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 22:34:34 GMT

Pablo,
I don't think they'd get subsidized to sell electricity produced by diesel as it's not a renewable source. And I don't think even biofuel was on that list as a renewable source of electricity. But it's nice to know that you are thinking about energy production now

The U.K. government is very worried already about future energy sources, which is why it has finally agreed to build more nuclear power stations in spite of all the problems associated with them. And why they are also subsidizing green electricity (and digging up our countryside to lay new gas pipelines).

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 22:42:25 GMT

But, in energy terms, the solar system should be able to pay for itself in about 6 years.

Can't do the quotes on my phone, but aside from the size of the bill, where are you gonna send it?

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 22:48:36 GMT

Tino,
I would say that Gaia is getting more and more into debt because of the way we humans behave, and it is she that suffers, until she gets into such a bad state that we all suffer as well (and possibly become totally wiped out as a species here on earth).

And I am just as guilty as anyone else, in fact more guilty than most of the people sharing this planet with me.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 25 May 2010 22:56:07 GMT

The point about diesel v solar is that after 6 years, you Brucie, are paying for your diesel, bio or non- bio, and have to buy your lift pass, whereas Ally has recouped all of her investment, and is then skiing for free. Every year.
The neat app here is that a ski lift is a daytime usage, which is just what solar is made for.
there would be some maintenance, but it is minimal, c/w say turbines. The performance degradatio would be effective after 20/25 years.
Solar costs have fallen significantly since China took up manufacture in a serious way, they are really tops with their research too.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 26 May 2010 00:45:29 GMT

I'd be really concerned at the volcano producing a massive ash cloud which blocks out much of the sun reducing the power created by the solar panels.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 26 May 2010 07:06:06 GMT

There would be no shortage of bio fuel, unless the Swiss decide to stop using oil for their meat Fondues/chips. It need not have a price tag, as much of this oil is considered waste.
The costs of replacing damaged and worn out panels needs to be factored in, plus any costs for degradation of the output, caused by faults with ageing of the circuits, obliging the operator to purchase power from the grid.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 26 May 2010 08:21:38 GMT

I'm not sure that vegetable oil would be suitable for a motor running a ski lift.

http://www.vegoilmotoring.com/eng/frequently-asked-questions

How do converted vehicles perform in cold weather?
As vegetable oil becomes thicker at lower temperatures Elsbett recommend blending winter diesel and vegetable oil at temperatures approaching -10oC to allow for normal operation. If the temperature is likely to go down to -15oC then the SVO should be completely switched to winter diesel.

Four of our Coastal buses here run on used cooking oil supplied by that company, and they reckon it's about 20 pence per litre cheaper than diesel, although diesel engines in cars etc. do have to be converted to run solely on vegetable oil (cost for a car is apparently GBP1,200).

In the U.K. waste cooking oil now costs about 55 pence per litre to buy (I don't know about Swiss prices), and I think if it's used commercially you have to pay duty on it. I have just seen a shocking breakdown of prices of normal diesel and biodiesel (which is apparently made from vegetable oil but involves the use of fossil fuels etc.).

Prices as of May 2009
Diesel
Duty = 50 pence
Production = 23 pence
VAT = 19 pence
Retailer = 5 pence
Delivery = 6 pence
Gross profit = 27 pence
Total = 130 pence

Biodiesel
Duty = 30 pence
Production = 70 pence
VAT = 21 pence
Gross profit = 20 pence
Total = 141 pence

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 26 May 2010 08:33:43 GMT

Ally you are quite correct in that you can't apply our Tax regime to the Swiss situation to judge running costs.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 26 May 2010 10:04:36 GMT

Bandit,
I am sorry for the slight diversion, but I was so horrified to discover that half the money I pay for my petrol goes on duty and VAT.

The Swiss price for diesel is only 0.2 Euros less than we pay here at the moment, according to http://www.aaireland.ie/petrolprices/

so, I should think they must have fuel taxes of their own. I don't know, however, how much Tenna would have to pay per litre for diesel to run the lift motor because I don't know how their tax regime would apply to this particular use of diesel. So I can't compare the running costs for solar and diesel.

But I'm sure they must have spent a great deal of time working all this out, and that in their particular situation the solar panels were the best option.

The U.S. is the cheapest on that list - only 0.66 Euros per litre for diesel.

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 26 May 2010 10:30:31 GMT

Dave Mac wrote:The point about diesel v solar is that after 6 years, you Brucie, are paying for your diesel, bio or non- bio, and have to buy your lift pass, whereas Ally has recouped all of her investment, and is then skiing for free. Every year.

Sorry Dave, but I dont agree that a capital cost of 3/4 of a million poundscould be recouped in 6 years. This would entail making a gross profit of GBP125,000 per year or a yield on investment of 16.66% which in todays financial climate would be astronomical.

If you can confirm these figures, I suggest we all club together and buy the J2ski solar drag lift somewhere, say Niederau, sit back and count the cash as it rolls in!!!

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 26 May 2010 12:20:14 GMT

Brucie wrote:

Dave Mac wrote:The point about diesel v solar is that after 6 years, you Brucie, are paying for your diesel, bio or non- bio, and have to buy your lift pass, whereas Ally has recouped all of her investment, and is then skiing for free. Every year.

Sorry Dave, but I dont agree that a capital cost of 3/4 of a million poundscould be recouped in 6 years. This would entail making a gross profit of GBP125,000 per year or a yield on investment of 16.66% which in todays financial climate would be astronomical.

If you can confirm these figures, I suggest we all club together and buy the J2ski solar drag lift somewhere, say Niederau, sit back and count the cash as it rolls in!!!

J2ski could lead the way here. Admin could install solar panels to power the servers for the site, and make J2ski an obvious choice for environmentally conscious advertisers and skiers.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 26 May 2010 12:55:10 GMT

Brucie wrote:

Dave Mac wrote:The point about diesel v solar is that after 6 years, you Brucie, are paying for your diesel, bio or non- bio, and have to buy your lift pass, whereas Ally has recouped all of her investment, and is then skiing for free. Every year.

Sorry Dave, but I dont agree that a capital cost of 3/4 of a million poundscould be recouped in 6 years. This would entail making a gross profit of GBP125,000 per year or a yield on investment of 16.66% which in todays financial climate would be astronomical.

If you can confirm these figures, I suggest we all club together and buy the J2ski solar drag lift somewhere, say Niederau, sit back and count the cash as it rolls in!!!

Brucie,
It was the solar panel part of the lift that I had estimated would pay for itself in 6 years, not the whole lift. They needed to build a new drag lift anyway, which they would have had to fund through the profits associated with it (from tourism, lift pass, whatever ...).

I got lost in all that German, but SwingBeep said that the solar bit of the lift was going to cost 420,000 Swiss Francs, which is GBP253,000.

I had another go at that electricity price calculator, and put in 18 kW and 'integrated' for the sort of solar system (I am only guessing here) and this time I was rewarded with an electricity price of 62.5rp per kWh which equates to 38 pence per kWh. It is designed to produce 90,000 kWh per year, so it should generate an annual gross income from selling the electricity of GBP34,200. And, if it works the same as the British system, they also get the electricity they use for free. The lift is estimated to use 22,000 kWh which at 10 pence per unit (I don't know how much Swiss electricty costs but maybe someone will correct me here) is worth GBP2,200 p.a. So gross income from electricity generated by the solar panels would be GBP36,400.

GBP253,280 divided by GBP36,400 is 7. So, yes I was out by a bit. According to my slightly dodgy calculations it would take 7 years, not 6 to pay for the solar part of the ski lift, and that's only if you ignore the cost of borrowing the money or the loss by not being able to invest it elsewhere.

It would be nice if someone involved in the Tenna project would step in and give us the real figures, so I wouldn't have to keep guestimating.

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 26 May 2010 15:00:09 GMT

"Opportunity cost" is what you are getting at I think.

The lift doesn't seem that expensive (even although it is only a drag lift). Modern lifts generally run in to millions, if not tens of millions, of pounds/dollars/euros.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 26 May 2010 16:57:26 GMT

Pablo Escobar wrote:"Opportunity cost" is what you are getting at I think.

The lift doesn't seem that expensive (even although it is only a drag lift). Modern lifts generally run in to millions, if not tens of millions, of pounds/dollars/euros.

Thanks Pablo, the opportunity cost of investing in the solar PV system and not in something else is exactly what I meant. But it would be rather difficult to calculate.

SwingBeep said the lift was only 500m long and I don't know what the vertical rise is.

I looked at the operating hours of the lift, and SwingBeep was quite right - it is shut for most of the time! It is only open from the 19th December to the 14th March, and its operating hours are; 9-30 to 12-00 and 13-00 to 16-00.
I have never seen a ski lift before that shuts for lunch

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 26 May 2010 17:34:29 GMT

AllyG wrote:

I looked at the operating hours of the lift, and SwingBeep was quite right - it is shut for most of the time! It is only open from the 19th December to the 14th March, and its operating hours are; 9-30 to 12-00 and 13-00 to 16-00.
I have never seen a ski lift before that shuts for lunch

Ally

Ally, you have not lived until you have been on a lift that has shut for lunch

As it was a draglift, there was not too much carnage, we all skied away

This was in Italy, I'm unsure if the practice is still followed.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 26 May 2010 23:13:22 GMT

Brucie, I was using Aly's payback time.
For domestic installations, the payback is a) GBP1000/year for a GBP12k investment, Dr Steve Reynolds, Dundee Uni, b) GBP950/year for a GBP14k investment, Sunday Times Money section, last week. The feed-in tariff is index linked, and tax free. When you factor in these, the payback period falls.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 27 May 2010 07:33:17 GMT

Dave,
The payback time for my hypothetical domestic British PV solar system was 6 years, when I used the Cashback Calculator provided by energysavingtrust.org.uk
http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Cashback-Calculator

I entered that I was going to produce 7300 kWh/year (maximum potential 2kW per hour from my 18m2 PV solar panels) from an under 4kW retrofit which I was going to install between 15th July 2009 and March 2012, and that it was going to cost me GBP20,000 to install the system and I wasn't taking out a loan, and I would be in the house most of the time during the daytime so I was only going to export 25% of the electricity I generated.

And it came back saying that they would pay me 41.3 pence per kW for 25 years, I would generate a gross profit of GBP3,570 p.a. the payback time was 6 years and the lifetime benefit would be GBP85,672.

The gross profit was made up of:
Income from generation tariff = GBP3,015
Income from export (they pay an extra 3 pence per kWh)=GBP55
Fuel bill savings = GBP500
Total = GBP3,570

I think this new system of paying out as you go like this (Feed-in Tariffs) only started on 1st April 2010. Before this they used to give you a grant. And it's the electricity companies that pay you the money.

It is of course only an estimate, because for all they know my roof might collapse and the solar panels might all get smashed up, although I believe they do specify that you have to use a registered installer who will presumably survey the roof first.

Their phone number is 08450 767634

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 27 May 2010 17:35:31 GMT

Using the online calculator I came up with the following:
Assuming that the that the installation starts operating this year and they are gong to install 255 of Sunways SM 210U's rated at 240 Wp then the "Projected plant size" should be 61.2 kWp which results in a feed-in tariff of CHF 0.0599/kWh a surplus of 68'000 kWh would give them a guaranteed income (not allowing for the drop off in performance) of CHF 40'052 p.a. or CHF 1'001'300 over 25 years.

If on the other hand if they had chosen to build a conventional lift, then the electricity bill would be CHF 2'921.60 p.a. / CHF 73'040.00 over 25 years, assuming that the tariff will remain at CHF 0.1328/kWh which of course is not guaranteed.

The lift has a vertical range of 131m from 1644m up to 1775m.

There seems to be a photovoltaic boom in Grisons at the moment, earlier this week St. Antonien (450 inhabitants) announced that it had commissioned a study on the feasibility of mounting solar panels on the avalanche barriers above the village. It is estimated that there is the potential to produce 3.5 megawatts, enough to supply 1200 households. This would be by far the largest installation to date in CH. Apparently Switzerland has 500km of avalanche barriers 200km of which are thought to be located at suitable sites, the estimated total potential is 56 megawatts, enough to supply 20'000 households.

For those of you trying to work out the viability of an installation of your own, this program might be of interest: http://www.velasolaris.com/vs2/index.php there are many others Google for: pv simulation software.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Thu, 27 May 2010 23:19:33 GMT

Thanks for the vela site, SwBp, although this is aimed at company level. It does show a good analytical approach.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Fri, 28 May 2010 09:27:10 GMT

SwingBeep,
Thanks for all that extra info.

What value did you put in, on that calculator, for 'projected plant size'?

I didn't know what it was, only that it generated 90,000 kWh in a year, so I simply divided 90,000 by (365 X 12) for the estimated daylight hours and got 20.55 kW.

So, I put 20.55 kW in, and 30/12/2010 for the planned operational date, and 'integrated' for the type of system and I got 0.67 Swiss Francs per kWh.

And in my costings I had assumed that the Swiss got paid at the same rate for the PV electricity they used themselves (for the drag lift), like we do here in the U.K. as well as what they sell to the grid.

Anyway, I have phoned for a PV solar panel installer to come and give me a free quote for a 2 kW system on our roof. If anyone wants to sponsor it I will put their names on the wall by the roof

I thought if the Swiss can do it, so can I

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Fri, 28 May 2010 17:33:04 GMT

I have done some more thinking (and reading) about PV systems and I think there is an error on that energysavingtrust.org.uk website calculator.

Other articles and websites say that with a 1 kW system, in the U.K. you only get between 700 and 900 kWh per year. In other words you only generate an average of 18% of the potential electricity (presumably because it keeps raining). So the costings I got for my system with that calculator are completely wrong

I have no idea how efficient the one on that lift in Switzerland would be, but if that one was only 18% as well, they'd need about a 100kW rated system to produce an average of 20 kW of energy per hour. Hopefully, because of the altitude, theirs will be more efficient than that. And, unlike me, I expect they know what they're doing

I will wait and see what the PV engineer says when he comes round, but maybe it's not such a good idea after all!

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Fri, 28 May 2010 21:26:55 GMT

Woops, sorry about that! I entered 90'000 kWh which is clearly wrong. I have now corrected my previous post to avoid further embarrassment. It would make things easier if the "Projected plant size" box in the online calculator was labelled kWp instead of kW.

Whilst getting the getting the data for the panels from the Sunways web site I noticed that they have a free Excel based configuration application: Sunways Sundim 5.19, the download link is located on the left hand side under "System planning for plumbers" http://www.sunways.eu/en/products/configurator/

I have now found out that the lift is only 450m long.

AllyG
As Grisons averages 300 sunny days a year, the PV installation at Tenna is bound to be more efficient than one at your location (the more you put in the more you get out). There are reports that installations in Grissons and Valais produce 30-40% more electricity than equivalent installations in central Switzerland. This is where the tracking system comes in, it will enable installations in southern Europe to reach "Grid parity" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_parity and installations in northern Europe to be more efficient. Obviously the PV installations need to be on a larger scale than you plan. How about doing a deal with a major supermarket chain whereby they let you install third generation Solar Wings (the ones with the mirrors) in their car parks in exchange for a proportion of the amount of electricity produced and supplying the national grid with the rest at the feed-in tariff.

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Fri, 28 May 2010 23:39:59 GMT

SwingBeep,
Don't worry about it - 2 or 3 extra noughts are nothing between friends

It is very frustrating the way they make these things difficult to understand, and the calculators hard to use (and faulty!).

I will give Tesco's a ring tomorrow about using their car park

I have found another site that looks very clever, but a bit too clever for me

It's supposed to be a PV Potential Estimation Utility website, for use anywhere in Europe.

http://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/apps3/pvest.php

But it doesn't seem to do anything simple,like tell you the hours of sunshine per year in different locations.

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Wed, 2 Jun 2010 18:41:44 GMT

I have had an answer to the e-mail I sent to the tourist board for that area of Switzerland - www.safiental.ch.

This is what they said:

Dear Alison

The T-bar lift ist 500 meter long. The motor power is 36 kw.
That means the lift is using during the season 22'000 kwH.

The solar panels are producing 90'000 kwH per year. This is the energy for
about 15 one-family houses.

I attached two drawings.

We have still some weeks to find the missing 300 CHF. We are looking for
sponsoring and money sources. The whole projects costs 1,2 Mio CHF.

In July we have to order the new solar T-bar, because we want to open it
in december 2010

Best regards,
Felicia Montalta

So at least I am put out of my agony about the size of the drag lift - 36kW, but I still don't know the maximum power generated by the solar panels per hour, so I have sent her another e-mail asking this (and best wishes for their success).

I guess she means they are still short of 300,000 Swiss Francs for the project, if anyone is feeling generous .

Ally

Re:Ski Lift Running on Solar Power

Tue, 6 Mar 2012 08:39:38 GMT

The solar powered drag lift in Tenna seems to be a big success. It carries 800 skiers per hour.

http://inhabitat.com/tiny-swiss-ski-town-unveals-worlds-first-solar-wing-powered-ski-lift/

And we have now put a 4Kwh PV solar array in one of our fields by the house. It doesn't run a drag lift though

Ally