Latest posts for the topic "Carving and Speed"

Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 12:16:02 GMT

Do you think that modern carving skis have resulted in many skiers skiing at higher speeds than they used to?

This occurred to me last April while watching a particularly busy piste in Verbier.

It seems to me that as it has become easier to carve, there are many skiers carving before they have learned to balance properly on a skidding ski. The result is a lot of skiers who are not in as much control as they might be in terms of being able to stop suddenly or make a sudden change in direction when necessary.

I'm not convinced this is the case but I'm curious what others think.

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 12:34:38 GMT

Excess speed by inexperienced skiers could be curbed by resorts ceasing their overgrooming of pistes, and not remodelling (aka bulldozing) them so that all of the terrain is dumbed down.
Last month I was in Zermatt, and I was chatting to a Swiss from Bern about the pistes. I'd thought I was skiing hard packed powder, quite firm but grippy. He was complaining that the slopes were not packed down hard enough for his carvers

Still, the accessible off piste areas were nice and quiet

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 12:53:11 GMT

If I come across one more skier or boarder come to that who are skiing out of control or at speeds above their capability causing danger to all I might just forget I am a civilized person and crack a few heads. Well as long as they are smaller than me.

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 12:54:55 GMT

bandit wrote:Excess speed by inexperienced skiers could be curbed by resorts ceasing their overgrooming of pistes, and not remodelling (aka bulldozing) them so that all of the terrain is dumbed down.

I agree, but I think they 'dumb down' the pistes because they think it makes them safer. If it does result in inexperienced skiers traveling faster
then any extra safeness is lost.

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 13:28:26 GMT

Neiltoo wrote:
I agree, but I think they 'dumb down' the pistes because they think it makes them safer. If it does result in inexperienced skiers traveling faster
then any extra safeness is lost.

interesting, I'd not thought of it like that before, you must be right though. I don't think there's any one universal approach used, different places try different things and some do nothing.

In answer to your original point, some of the insurers here reckon people are going faster, I'm sure there's something on the SUVA website somewhere. I know they reckon that over 50kph can be fatal in a collision.

Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 14:57:42 GMT

Neiltoo wrote:Do you think that modern carving skis have resulted in many skiers skiing at higher speeds than they used to?

This occurred to me last April while watching a particularly busy piste in Verbier.

It seems to me that as it has become easier to carve, there are many skiers carving before they have learned to balance properly on a skidding ski. The result is a lot of skiers who are not in as much control as they might be in terms of being able to stop suddenly or make a sudden change in direction when necessary.

I'm not convinced this is the case but I'm curious what others think.

I don't think it is totally down to the carving ski, in my experience there are still people who do not take enough
lessons try and keep up with more experienced friends or have just had too many beers at lunch time.
I feel frustrated especially when I have a seven year old having her ski tails skied over, some of these people have not learnt the etiquette of the slopes. I will always stop if I see a skier has fallen just to check they are ok not many people seem to do this these days, stopping in the middle of the piste,skiing slopes too steep for ability, piste awareness, common sense is always required,but it seems very rarely used.

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 15:30:26 GMT

There are several issues with carving and safety. The skier safety codes have never addressed the issue before because so few skiers were actually carving and the issues only arise when really carving.

As for speed. I said in another post that carving is skiing with the brakes off. Skidded turns are skiing with the brakes permanently on. Speed control when carving comes from making turns. It takes time to learn to control speed with turns and that's why carving should be learned on much more gentle slopes than regular skiing at the same level.

Carving a turn requires commitment. Once committed, it is very hard to change the dynamics quickly. The thrill of carving comes from carving. people who get that thrill don't like to skid or to use the oft used phrase, blend their turns. Therefor carving needs space. It is dangerous to carve on crowded slopes with large radius skis what ever the skiers ability.

Carvers who are controlling their speed make complete turns of 60 to 180 degrees. while their progress down the slope might appear slow, their speed is still verly high. Carvers can not ski board close to another caver as it is too easy to end up transitioning toward each other at the same time. It is very hard to anticipate the time it will take a carver to complete the turn (it happens so fast) and carvers are commonly hit from behind.

Contrary to some. Most skiers would like to be able to carve. For the reasons above I would always recommend a smaller radius ski. Not just because it makes carving easier, but because it makes it much safer.

Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 15:36:01 GMT

Ian Wickham wrote:

I don't think it is totally down to the carving ski, in my experience there are still people who do not take enough
lessons try and keep up with more experienced friends or have just had too many beers at lunch time.

I feel slightly differently. I think that the modern shaped ski has had a large part to play in the changes in on slope behaviour.

It's now commonplace to hear folks say that they have had a weeks lessons and now they're an intermediate and can do reds and the occasional black.

Did I nod off and during the time I was asleep, all beginners turned into athletes, with superior balance and muscle control??

Way back when the "carving ski" was first carried by rental shops in the USA, I saw a poster in resort, extolling the virtues of the new shape with the USP.....

"By Pass the Bunny Slopes"

To me, it looks like learners can mostly do that these days. There is no real learner status anymore, and no time to get a skills base, before they are out there in the thick of it.

Add into the mix, the over grooming of blue and red pistes (in Europe). To me it looks like an accident waiting to happen, except it is happening. Accidents with collisions are now common and average speeds are up. I don't need to read a report, just stand still and watch.
2/3 or more of the folks I ski with, have been hit (and knocked over) by another skier at some time in the past 2/3 winters.

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 15:53:48 GMT

An old boy on in Norwich used to service my skis he gave me an awful telling off about my new carvers,
he said " these things are bloody dangerous " I asked him why " because they make you think you can ski when you can't " he was a grumpy old sod, I came away thinking he's living in the past and can't let go of his skinny skis.
But the old boy has a point I started skiing on 185 cm, I'm now down to 160 cm. So have carvers made it too easy to learn to ski ?????

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 16:34:57 GMT

Ian Wickham wrote:An old boy on in Norwich used to service my skis he gave me an awful telling off about my new carvers,
he said " these things are bloody dangerous " I asked him why " because they make you think you can ski when you can't " he was a grumpy old sod,
So have carvers made it too easy to learn to ski ?????

Could have been me except I've never been to Norwich

I don't think that it can ever be too easy to learn to ski but bypassing certain stages will affect the end result...Be it Ski Evolutif where snowplough was considered unnecessary (you can always tell someone who learned by this route imho) or using carving skis before your technique is up to it.

I suppose its natural to want to progress as fast as possible but it doesn't always finish up with the best result.

Carving is often talked about as if its some new discipline - as long as skis have had any side cut at all, people have been carving turns its just got 100 times easier to do with modern skis.

As Bandit says nobody is a learner any more after a few lessons, when talking to skiers in our shop the only people who call themselves beginners are those who haven't skied at all.

Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 16:43:23 GMT

bandit wrote:
Add into the mix, the over grooming of blue and red pistes (in Europe). To me it looks like an accident waiting to happen, except it is happening. Accidents with collisions are now common and average speeds are up. I don't need to read a report, just stand still and watch.
2/3 or more of the folks I ski with, have been hit (and knocked over) by another skier at some time in the past 2/3 winters.

Numbers of accidents per skier days though are lower and when you see someone being stretchered onto the place the odds are no one else was involved. What I think might be deceptive about the figures is I think it's not a even distribution across the season. There's been a ludicrous number of accidents reported in the press here over the last few weeks, avalanches, sledging, skiing, a really tragic number involving children as well. I've not been hit by another skier but when it's busy I go snow shoeing, ski touring, build igloos or chill out. Even then, this is pretty much unrelated to skiing or the sorts of skis people are on, they're just the same on the road, the proportion of people skiing stupidly is about the same as driving stupidly, or trying to get run over on the road. That being the case I'm not sure what can be about it.

Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 16:56:12 GMT

ise wrote:

bandit wrote:
Add into the mix, the over grooming of blue and red pistes (in Europe). To me it looks like an accident waiting to happen, except it is happening. Accidents with collisions are now common and average speeds are up. I don't need to read a report, just stand still and watch.
2/3 or more of the folks I ski with, have been hit (and knocked over) by another skier at some time in the past 2/3 winters.

I've not been hit by another skier but when it's busy I go snow shoeing, ski touring, build igloos or chill out. the case I'm not sure what can be about it.

ISTR that you used to have a blue helmet, same style, until you you were knocked over and hit your head? Was that a snowboarder?

It was the slope incident that led to the "shiny red helmet" gag

Folks get their slope time, and by golly they are there to ski, and that's they do. For vacationers it's hard to not ski, when that's what has been planned all year.

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 17:14:50 GMT

My point in all of this is that because skiing has become easier to learn for which I am not against, beginners are missing valuable lessons in etiquette and in part become dangerous to themselves and others. Since the near miss last year I ski at the back of the line of three so at least there is an option of protection for little Wickham, I was at the front last year and so could not give protection. It does not bare thinking about had the skier been three inches to the right.

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 17:47:24 GMT

Ian Wickham wrote:My point in all of this is that because skiing has become easier to learn for which I am not against, beginners are missing valuable lessons in etiquette and in part become dangerous to themselves and others. Since the near miss last year I ski at the back of the line of three so at least there is an option of protection for little Wickham, I was at the front last year and so could not give protection. It does not bare thinking about had the skier been three inches to the right.

I understand why you might do that, and I've done slightly similar but I'm a bit concerned these family groups running interference for each other are one of the problems we see on the slopes. I was trying to pass some people the other day with a father trying to react to the two kids changes in movement and it was really, really hard to move past. You might have it down to a fine art but in that case I've no doubt this guy was increasing the chances of a collision.

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 18:00:41 GMT

ise wrote:

Ian Wickham wrote:My point in all of this is that because skiing has become easier to learn for which I am not against, beginners are missing valuable lessons in etiquette and in part become dangerous to themselves and others. Since the near miss last year I ski at the back of the line of three so at least there is an option of protection for little Wickham, I was at the front last year and so could not give protection. It does not bare thinking about had the skier been three inches to the right.

I understand why you might do that, and I've done slightly similar but I'm a bit concerned these family groups running interference for each other are one of the problems we see on the slopes. I was trying to pass some people the other day with a father trying to react to the two kids changes in movement and it was really, really hard to move past. You might have it down to a fine art but in that case I've no doubt this guy was increasing the chances of a collision.

Believe it or not I agree with what you are saying, I'm very careful on what piste I take little Wickham on, I have seen examples of kids skiing unsupervised who could cause problems. I took little Wickham on her first red last year but I did this after an early lunch as the piste was less busy . I think really ise it's a common sense thing and of cause giving some people a wide birth, what I will pass on to Little Wickham is the etiquette of skiing as I think
it's important part of her skiing development.

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 18:22:27 GMT

Ian Wickham wrote:
Believe it or not I agree with what you are saying, I'm very careful on what piste I take little Wickham on, I have seen examples of kids skiing unsupervised who could cause problems. I took little Wickham on her first red last year but I did this after an early lunch as the piste was less busy . I think really ise it's a common sense thing and of cause giving some people a wide birth, what I will pass on to Little Wickham is the etiquette of skiing as I think
it's important part of her skiing development.

sorry I was trying not to suggest you weren't doing it safely, I would think it's perfectly possible to do safely providing you're a reasonable skier and the kid's not a total beginner. The guy I saw probably ought to have been in lessons and not trying to supervise two kids. I suppose the desire to do some stuff with your own kids and not be separated in different classes is quite normal so it's hard to get right.

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 18:46:33 GMT

ise wrote:

Ian Wickham wrote:
Believe it or not I agree with what you are saying, I'm very careful on what piste I take little Wickham on, I have seen examples of kids skiing unsupervised who could cause problems. I took little Wickham on her first red last year but I did this after an early lunch as the piste was less busy . I think really ise it's a common sense thing and of cause giving some people a wide birth, what I will pass on to Little Wickham is the etiquette of skiing as I think
it's important part of her skiing development.

sorry I was trying not to suggest you weren't doing it safely, I would think it's perfectly possible to do safely providing you're a reasonable skier and the kid's not a total beginner. The guy I saw probably ought to have been in lessons and not trying to supervise two kids. I suppose the desire to do some stuff with your own kids and not be separated in different classes is quite normal so it's hard to get right.

No need to apologize, Little Wickham always has her lessons in the a.m and we family ski in the p.m. I do take your point and agree 100%. How we would line up is Mrs Wickham in front, Little Wickham following Mrs Wickham ski tracks, and me at the back, we do this as a bit of a "follow the leader " so Little Wickham can turn at will, well thats the plan any way, Little Wickham is pretty cool on her skis she parallel turns and goes for her second star at the end of the month.

Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 19:41:04 GMT

bandit wrote:

ise wrote:

I've not been hit by another skier but when it's busy I go snow shoeing, ski touring, build igloos or chill out. the case I'm not sure what can be about it.

ISTR that you used to have a blue helmet, same style, until you you were knocked over and hit your head? Was that a snowboarder?

It was the slope incident that led to the "shiny red helmet" gag

I shall answer my own query

You were hit by a snowboarder at Gstaad. You blogged it here...

http://snowslider.net/2005/12/04/2005-12-04-gstaad-saanenmoser-hit-and-run/

You still have a shiny red helmet

Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 19:45:12 GMT

bandit wrote:

bandit wrote:

ise wrote:

I've not been hit by another skier but when it's busy I go snow shoeing, ski touring, build igloos or chill out. the case I'm not sure what can be about it.

ISTR that you used to have a blue helmet, same style, until you you were knocked over and hit your head? Was that a snowboarder?

It was the slope incident that led to the "shiny red helmet" gag

I shall answer my own query

You were hit by a snowboarder at Gstaad. You blogged it here...

http://snowslider.net/2005/12/04/2005-12-04-gstaad-saanenmoser-hit-and-run/

You still have a shiny red helmet

Bandit, your in trouble now

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 20:14:42 GMT

I'd forgot about that you did say 2 or 3 winters, that was longer ago

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 20:21:23 GMT

ise wrote:I'd forgot about that you did say 2 or 3 winters, that was longer ago

I certainly remember innocently commenting about the helmet, and that it was shiny and er...red...

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 20:27:00 GMT

bandit wrote:Excess speed by inexperienced skiers could be curbed by resorts ceasing their overgrooming of pistes, and not remodelling (aka bulldozing) them so that all of the terrain is dumbed down.
Last month I was in Zermatt, and I was chatting to a Swiss from Bern about the pistes. I'd thought I was skiing hard packed powder, quite firm but grippy. He was complaining that the slopes were not packed down hard enough for his carvers

Still, the accessible off piste areas were nice and quiet

That's like blaming the powder for avalanche accidents.

What I was trying to convey before is that carving requires a greater awareness than is usualy needed for skiing. Alpine snowboard carvers, who generally have the greatest experience at free carving will often be seen waiting at the top of a run for the way to clear out. They often take note of those that might come behind them, letting any wannabe racers or potential straight liners go first. Better to wait and enjoy a full run of linked carved turns than have to keep skidding around people. The people I carve with switch to smaller radius boards as it becomes more crowded and go home if they can't carve safely. I can see that someone on vacation with limited days to ski might take chances that we would not.

Trencher

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 20:40:31 GMT

Trencher wrote:

That's like blaming the powder for avalanche accidents.

Trencher

Actually powder, that is snow, does cause avalanche accidents. It has a habit of falling in large quantities and periodically slides off the mountains in an unpredictable manner, despite the best efforts of resort professionals.

Carving, being only one aspect of skiing, IMV requires less awareness than, for example, skiing an off piste pitch, which will have many variables to consider.

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 21:28:31 GMT

Trencher wrote:What I was trying to convey before is that carving requires a greater awareness than is usualy needed for skiing.

oh, come on, you're in cloud cuckoo land now how utterly absurd, it's the easiest of things to do requiring the very least of concentration or effort which is why most accomplished skiers move on to other challenges.

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 21:48:02 GMT

bandit wrote:

Trencher wrote:

That's like blaming the powder for avalanche accidents.

Trencher

Carving, being only one aspect of skiing, IMV requires less awareness than, for example, skiing an off piste pitch, which will have many variables to consider.

You must not have read the rest of my post about safe carving. Accidents whether collisions on piste or avalanche incidents off piste are generally caused by people taking chances beyond a calculated risk. Occasionally accidents happen despite the best precautions on and off piste.

Bandit, just as you take precautions off piste evaluating the conditions and your skills, so must a carver make similar evaluations with equally serious consequences. if a high speed carve goes wrong, it is possible to find your self sliding into the trees at 90 degree to the piste doing 60kph. One of the concerns with carving is that people don't see it as having additional risk and therefore requiring less awareness than other types of skiing where the risk is more apparent.

Trencher

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 22:44:40 GMT

I have not seen any mention of ski stiffness anywhere in the discussion. If one skis a softer ski at a given speed, the resultant arc will be greater than with a stiff ski, and so the turn length reduced.

In the days before special powder skis, straight skis were the only option. In deep snow, particularly in a low alpine situation, (snow tends to be heavier than high or extreme cold areas), there is no opportunity to exercise rear edge control. Pure arc turns were the only option when using standard techniques.

Of course these would not work for really steep areas, unless the skis were ultra soft.

In relation to skill levels, I cannot quite see the logic that one form of ski technique carries a greater risk than another. I would argue that the risk is related to a) the ski environment and it's condition, b) your capability to handle these, and c) the risk evaluation between a and b.

That would apply equally to steep and deep, general piste skiing, avalament, boarding, carving, racing etc.

I can't recall having any piste fall in the past 15/18 ski weeks. But in my earlier days, I had several speed hits, two into trees, one OK, one not OK, and one hit into an Austrian racer who was supposed to be leading me, but he chickened out at the edge of a jump. I hit him mid-air, it wasn't a pretty result, but I was OK.

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 23:11:36 GMT

A softer ski at a given speed will give the same radius turn as a stiffer ski if the person riding them is able to apply the appropriate force to engage the particular radius of either ski.

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 23:12:44 GMT

Dave Mac wrote:I have not seen any mention of ski stiffness anywhere in the discussion. If one skis a softer ski at a given speed, the resultant arc will be greater than with a stiff ski, and so the turn length reduced.

Well, thats possibly because my original post was about whether or not carving skis were causing intermediate skiers to ski faster than their skill level would allow.

We have got off topic somewhat.... imagine that

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 23:15:52 GMT

Off topic? Noooo, how come all the threads right now are becoming carving related////

Re:Carving and Speed

Sun, 4 Jan 2009 23:45:32 GMT

RossF wrote:Off topic? Noooo, how come all the threads right now are becoming carving related////

Because the OP was about carving and speed (and the safety implications). It would be rather daft not to discuss carving safety issues in such a thread or I'm I missing something here.

Though I do think Dave posted half his post in the wrong thread. God, I dread getting any older

Trencher

Re:Carving and Speed

Mon, 5 Jan 2009 10:25:50 GMT

Trencher wrote:

Though I do think Dave posted half his post in the wrong thread. God, I dread getting any older

You are correct Trencher, I joined in the latter end of the thread.

As for age, there are advantages. I have a season pass for 215 Euros.... and it seems that I get to kiss the J2ski ladies..... in a rather fatherly way, of course.

Re:Carving and Speed

Mon, 5 Jan 2009 22:12:59 GMT

ise wrote:

Trencher wrote:What I was trying to convey before is that carving requires a greater awareness than is usualy needed for skiing.

oh, come on, you're in cloud cuckoo land now how utterly absurd, it's the easiest of things to do requiring the very least of concentration or effort which is why most accomplished skiers move on to other challenges.

Interesting. Those racers are really a bunch of amateurs doing the easy things!

Re:Carving and Speed

Mon, 5 Jan 2009 22:48:38 GMT

Dshenberger wrote:

ise wrote:

Trencher wrote:What I was trying to convey before is that carving requires a greater awareness than is usualy needed for skiing.

oh, come on, you're in cloud cuckoo land now how utterly absurd, it's the easiest of things to do requiring the very least of concentration or effort which is why most accomplished skiers move on to other challenges.

Interesting. Those racers are really a bunch of amateurs doing the easy things!

What I understood from Ise's post was that modern carving skis are designed to carve. Balance on the ski and it will do all the work for you.

Not sure which racers you mean, but World Cup slalom racers dont carve most of their turns according to Trenchers definition.

On a chemically iced world cup run most, if not all, are not carving every turn from start to finish, they try to, but dont manage it every time.

Re:Carving and Speed

Mon, 5 Jan 2009 23:33:55 GMT

RossF wrote:A softer ski at a given speed will give the same radius turn as a stiffer ski if the person riding them is able to apply the appropriate force to engage the particular radius of either ski.

Thats an interesting view of kinetics Ross.

Assume the major dynamic force on the ski is mass x velocity squared. Assume the same skier at the same speed, angulation, weight, slope. Hence, the force presented to the ski is the same, on both the stiff and soft ski.

So get a stiff ski, and a soft ski, (lateral stiffness, ie along the length) Torsional stiffness and legth is equal on both skis.

Support each ski at the ends, ski upside down, and position a 40 kg load on the waist. I would bet a wienerschnitzel AND a Zipfer bier, the softer ski has a greater deflection, and therefore a shorter arc radius.

Of course this is using a simple support process, whereas the ski would on snow would be subjected to a UDL. It is possible to carry out a UDL test, using a uniform soft thick support material to support the ski, and loading with the 40km load. The result would show a lesser deflection in both cases (than a simple support), but the proportionate difference would be the same.

Oh, UDL means uniformly distributed load, ie resistance loaded along the full length of the ski.

I respectfully submit the above, and restrain from asking for GBP5.

Re:Carving and Speed

Mon, 5 Jan 2009 23:47:29 GMT

My knowledge of physics extends beyond what you are giving me credit for Mr Mac. I said the appropriate force not that the force applied be the same for each ski assuming all the other variables (velocity, angulation, gradient of slope etc) remain constant. I believe it was quite clear in my earlier post that the force required to engage either radius would be required to be different.

Re:Carving and Speed

Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:36:48 GMT

I apologise for my introductory remark Ross. Having re-read your first note, I missed the part of the point you were making.

On the technicality, I should have also included in the assumption that the stiff and soft ski should have the same edge radius. Then with all other things being equal,the soft ski will adopt a different arc.

Where I was trying to go was that in the discussion, only the ski radius was considered, when considering the behaviour of older straighter large arc skis. Whereas, in my early days, ski stiffness and length were a couple of the very few variables. No guy ever skied on less than 205s. The best off piste Austrians all skied soft easyflex skis.

Re:Carving and Speed

Tue, 6 Jan 2009 08:43:37 GMT

Neiltoo wrote:
What I understood from Ise's post was that modern carving skis are designed to carve. Balance on the ski and it will do all the work for you.

I did or at least most of the work and certainly set you off the right way. It's a pretty low input thing, pistes here are empty and hard pack right now which makes carving the right technique for the day currently.

RossF wrote:My knowledge of physics extends beyond what you are giving me credit for Mr Mac. I said the appropriate force not that the force applied be the same for each ski assuming all the other variables (velocity, angulation, gradient of slope etc) remain constant. I believe it was quite clear in my earlier post that the force required to engage either radius would be required to be different.

Exactly. And more than that, the shape of ski allows it to form a turning arc with very little pressure, as opposed to an older ski which required rather more force to carve, as Mr Elling discussed in his book :

http://books.google.com/books?id=U_w8rVNwCREC&pg=PA131&lpg=PA131&dq=carving+ski+old+straight+skis&source=web&ots=m4PB-1a01s&sig=Isb4bl0lHD8rvezLH7jhwfYrtZ0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result

Re:Carving and Speed

Tue, 6 Jan 2009 20:17:28 GMT

Modern skis (easier to feel you're better than you are) + greatly increased helmet wearing = more out of control nutters!

Ski manufacturers had to adapt to snowboarding taking away potential 'punters', because back in the early 90's it was far easier and quicker to become proficient on a board than on skis. Fat skis with big side cuts have reversed that to the extent that better and bigger stunts can now be pulled on skis than on a board.

As a rugby fan, the same principal of the harder hit because of increased padding.

Re:Carving and Speed

Tue, 6 Jan 2009 23:55:39 GMT

http://www.ski-mastery.com/newsletter6.htm
thought you might find this interesting!!

Re:Carving and Speed

Wed, 7 Jan 2009 00:08:43 GMT

your site?

Re:Carving and Speed

Wed, 7 Jan 2009 08:12:33 GMT

scapula wrote:http://www.ski-mastery.com/newsletter6.htm
thought you might find this interesting!!

Nice site, I like the quote "Yet the similitude between the two skiers is undeniable!"

you'd be surprised just what does turn out to be deniable

Is it your site? Are you Bernard Chesneau? If so, we've met although it was about 10 years

Re:Carving and Speed

Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:37:15 GMT

No its not my page i just thought the photos were interesting i hope i didnt do anything wrong by posting a link .....Doh !! i notice I got a blank pm from Trencher...better find the rules and read them
cheers!

Re:Carving and Speed

Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:48:39 GMT

Your fine(I think), I post links all the time.. sorry if it is not allowed also

Re:Carving and Speed

Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:50:02 GMT

scapula wrote:No its not my page i just thought the photos were interesting i hope i didnt do anything wrong by posting a link .....Doh !! i notice I got a blank pm from Trencher...better find the rules and read them
cheers!

you did nothing wrong, that's just fine. I can only guess what was in the PM

Re:Carving and Speed

Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:36:10 GMT

carving ski's make intermediate skiers ski faster than their capabillity

isnt that the point of carving skis though? I'm a very crap beginner but even I've found that as long as I turn sharp enough I can slow down enough to be under control. I managed to get down red slopes after a few days using this technique and only had one unavoidable crash-ette with a poor soul who miraculously appeared at the end of one of my turns.

Apparently it was that much harder to carve on classic skies so that woudl have meant more time on eth slopes to get to a reasonably competant state but in this day & age, who really get chance to do more than 1 ski holiday a year?

Re:Carving and Speed

Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:39:15 GMT

elgius wrote:Apparently it was that much harder to carve on classic skies so that woudl have meant more time on eth slopes to get to a reasonably competant state but in this day & age, who really get chance to do more than 1 ski holiday a year?

You are on a ski forum.. most of us manage a couple holidays or get our skiing fix elsewhere. Some of us live in the snow also

Re:Carving and Speed

Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:41:27 GMT

elgius wrote:carving ski's make intermediate skiers ski faster than their capabillity

isnt that the point of carving skis though?

I hope not! Learning to ski faster is great but surely skiing faster than you are capable of controling is dangerous!

Re:Carving and Speed

Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:12:01 GMT

Assuming a basic ability to slow yourself down then surely the speed you choose to ski at is a personal decision regardless of the skiing style.

Let's face it, there's plenty of nutters out there going way too fast who probably couldn't carve a decent turn, even for a free JagerBomb!

Re:Carving and Speed

Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:17:49 GMT

Neiltoo wrote:

elgius wrote:carving ski's make intermediate skiers ski faster than their capabillity

isnt that the point of carving skis though?

I hope not! Learning to ski faster is great but surely skiing faster than you are capable of controling is dangerous!

Interesting thought though, maybe carving skis don't so much help you improve your skiing as help you go quicker with more confidence which is going to feel like progress.

It's tough though, I was just over in Grimentz and the pistes are in perfect condition, even on my big freeride skis it's fun to carve a bit and let the skis run a bit. Even on nearly empty pistes you've got to have your wits about you, any busier and it would be dangerous.

Re:Carving and Speed

Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:56:14 GMT

RossF wrote:

You are on a ski forum.. most of us manage a couple holidays or get our skiing fix elsewhere. Some of us live in the snow also

Is this a ski forum?? hehehe

I'm jealose, I'd love to be able to ski more often, I'm hooked. Funnily enough I live about 1/2 a mile from a dry slope (Wycombe Summit in High Wycombe) but it burned down a while back & they havent startyed rebuilding it yet.

I know, I know, dry slope isnt anything like a real slope but they are plannign on building an indoor slope (liek Snowdome) and also using snow cannons on the outdoor slope in winter so that you've got almost a real snow to play with. PERFECT! Just need them to get their arse in gear & build the bloody thing now

DUnno about the whole carving debate, but I know that I can have more fun, goign faster on bigger steeper slopes with more control if I use a carving ski than using classic skis

Cheers,
Lee