Latest posts for the topic "Pole Planting"

Pole Planting

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 19:25:59 GMT

I never did understand pole planting. It always seemed an odd thing to do and yet good skiers always say how important it is.

I always felt a bit guilty because I just let my poles trail along the floor but then a couple of years ago I saw a display by the instructors in Livigno. They were fantastic and generated speed down an easy blue run that I was amazed at, but they definitely were not planting poles.

This was at the back of my mind and kind of justified my not bothering.

Anyway today I was watching the giant slalem from Val D'Isere and guess what? They were trailing their poles along the floor just like me!!!

By the way I have found a benefit when skiing moguls but I can't see it on the piste.

Deep down I know I'm probably wrong but I don't get it. Any thoughts?

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 19:53:45 GMT

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TTboYL8CjaU&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=I3BnqtQhmwA&feature=related

The first is a video of some of the best (past and present) Canadian skiers.. they might not make a solid pole plant but the move is there. THe second is one of the best skiers about just now racing GS.. what? Pole plant.

Get some decent lessons and it should be something your ski instructor actively encourages you to do.. if not something is up. If you are not pole planting it can block numerous natural moves. There are certain occasions where pole planting may not be suitable (I doubt you will encounter these judging by what you have said) but the move is essential in maintaining natural consistency to your skiing.

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 20:10:27 GMT

Hi,

Thanks for that, love the name.

Clearly I'm missing something. I've watched the videos and it just shows how I see it. They are moving their arms into position but they're not planting the pole in front of them?

I am going to have some lessons this year, maybe I'll get it then but at the moment???

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 20:13:13 GMT

A pole plant does not have to be a completely solid connection.. a pole "touch" can do the trick. As you progress it will become an integral part of your skiing, you are probably turning your skis with your shoulders just now which will make a pole plant super awkward.

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:34:19 GMT

Planting the pole will generally get the body in the correct position to make an accurate turn.
Trailing your poles for a recreational skier is likely to result in the shoulders rotating, affecting balance and throwing the turn out.

Racing adjusts the technique, and because the skiers are so good the plant s either not obvious, o doesn't happen, but the body is in the right position.

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:39:58 GMT

IMO,Pole planting, and skiing around the planted pole, encourages a better turn. It's probably a bit 'old hat' especially in this age of carving, but still good practise.

Added benefit is that skiers behind can see early, which way you're gonna turn.

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:40:18 GMT

That is incorrect. Pole planting does not put you in the right position to begin a turn. Stand in your living room with your poles out and see how many different ways you can reach out and plant, it can often lead to the shoulders being far too open to make an efficient turn. Also a whole load of "tipping" can take place which can lead to being stuck on the "inside" ski through the final phase of the turn-not pretty.

Ski racers are not always technically "good" either, just fast, so I guess it is probably a pretty bad reference point.
Depends what you want from skiing I guess.

Oops, already failed on the "how to make friends and influence people" plan by telling someone they are wrong but you are

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:44:02 GMT

Planting in the right position does get you in the right stance to make the turn.

I also think you'll find the vast majority of top racers are excellent technical skiers, but when pushing the boundaries to the limits, the technique might not always show through.

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:47:38 GMT

If you had specified that in the original response then my reply may have been different. The vast majority but not all. The fact that the technique does not show through makes them a very poor point for reference in itself.

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:49:09 GMT

poleplantingisforgods wrote:Ski racers are not always technically "good" either, just fast, so I guess it is probably a pretty bad reference point.

Given that ski racers do nothing but technical skiing that's a bit hard to see. I know Bode is all over the place but he is the exception.

Pole Planting

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:50:29 GMT

POLEPLANTINGFORGODS AND DORSET BOY ARE BOTH RIGHT, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THAT YOUR ARMS ARE FORWARD OF YOUR BODY,AND NOT DOWN BY YOUR SIDES WITH POLES TRAILING BEHIND YOU

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:53:49 GMT

ise, your right. Again, not always In terms of not everyone and not in every race. Just not great people to use as examples. A lot of the time they are just recovering, especially Bode.

skidmarks, there are so many more factors than that, pretty daft response.

Pole Planting

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:57:51 GMT

DUH,SILLY ME

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 22:08:54 GMT

PPIFG: I suggest you go and free ski with some racers and wanabee racers and then come back n here and suggest they are not technically excellent skiers. Their basic and core techniques are what enable them to travel down the mountain the way they do.

You could also do with some lessons in tact and diplomacy!

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 22:11:29 GMT

I have and often do, you are not just twisting what I said. I did not say none of them skied technically well.

Pole Planting

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 22:11:59 GMT

skidmarks wrote:DUH,SILLY ME

caps lock off maybe? you may get a better reaction.

Pole Planting

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 22:20:46 GMT

thanks for the tip,with the caps lock,but mike did say that he skied with his poles trailing behind him, i think we can all agree that is not a good skiing technique

Re:Pole Planting

Sun, 14 Dec 2008 00:28:15 GMT

poleplantingisforgods wrote:The first is a video of some of the best (past and present) Canadian skiers.. they might not make a solid pole plant but the move is there.

So please explain what function the poles have for them please ?

In the interest of forum niceness, I should say this is a trick question

Trencher

Re:Pole Planting

Sun, 14 Dec 2008 00:30:30 GMT

To keep pole planting enthusiasts such as myself happy, well at least that is what they tell me at pole plant camp.

Maybe you should start carving with poles, make it that bit more natural...

Re:Pole Planting

Sun, 14 Dec 2008 01:33:56 GMT

poleplantingisforgods wrote:To keep pole planting enthusiasts such as myself happy, well at least that is what they tell me at pole plant camp.

Maybe you should start carving with poles, make it that bit more natural...

But seriousely, are the poles serving a function ?

Trencher

Re:Pole Planting

Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:43:52 GMT

As a bit of a novice or "early intermediate" I only learnt to pole plant last year and it made a massive difference.

It was a bit like switching on a light. It increased my control, confidence and subsequent speed. To me the key to skiing seems to be about keeping the rhythm of your movements smooth and the pole plant helps beat time to that rhythm.

Steve

Re:Pole Planting

Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:22:55 GMT

stevesmoothie wrote:To me the key to skiing seems to be about keeping the rhythm of your movements smooth and the pole plant helps beat time to that rhythm.

Exactly. When people first start skiing they tend to put turns in as and when they can and not always when the should. Getting some sort of rhythm going where you turn at set intervals can really help. This can be achieved by thinking about planting your poles rythmically, or as my girlfriend does, just counting - 1,2,3 turn 1,2,3 turn. She does this out loud which can seem a bit odd but it works for her

I think it does also help to get you more forward if you tend to ski a bit in the back seat.

Conversely, I now can't ski without poles. I just wouldn't know what to do with my hands

Pole Planting

Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:05:20 GMT

Pole planting definetly serves a purpose,
mainly balance ,posture,and timing for turns.

Re:Pole Planting

Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:29:55 GMT

Correct skidmarks. Pole planting is essential for Timing and co-ordination through the phases of the turn.
As with any sport - learning to ski properly at the outset will make it easier to adapt to conditions as you improve to advanced or expert level.
This is what racers do!!
If you have the opportunity to stop a video of racers in full flow, you will see that in the vast majority of cases their positioning is excellent with regards to angulation, rotation and weighting/unweighting of the skis.

Re:Pole Planting

Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:46:11 GMT

Brucie wrote:Correct skidmarks. Pole planting is essential for Timing and co-ordination through the phases of the turn.
As with any sport - learning to ski properly at the outset will make it easier to adapt to conditions as you improve to advanced or expert level.
This is what racers do!!
If you have the opportunity to stop a video of racers in full flow, you will see that in the vast majority of cases their positioning is excellent with regards to angulation, rotation and weighting/unweighting of the skis.

So, going back to that first video of the racers free skiing. Please explain what the function of the poles is in terms of the skier's movement and how is that movement advantagous to the skier. I am interested in the how the skiers body is moving and what effect the pole movements are having.

If the poles are only for timing, then it follows that the movements to swing the poles are artificial.

Trencher

Re:Pole Planting

Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:14:51 GMT

The video illustrates a subtle change in ski-ing technique which has developed from racing in the past few years.
Prior to this change the shoulders were used in a counter rotational manner to assist upper and lower body separation(shoulders to ze valley!!).
The change to which I refer is that throughout phase 2 of the turn( the apex) the outside shoulder comes around with the outside or uphill ski.(It has been described to me as a slow punching movement).
By looking to plant the pole ahead, this movement should remain smooth and rhythmical and the pole plant willprevent over rotation.
God, that sounds really technical, but it does work!!

Text Book Terry!!!

Re:Pole Planting

Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:33:36 GMT

Trencher wrote:

poleplantingisforgods wrote:The first is a video of some of the best (past and present) Canadian skiers.. they might not make a solid pole plant but the move is there.

So please explain what function the poles have for them please ?

In the interest of forum niceness, I should say this is a trick question

Trencher

Aye Trencher, I was waiting with bated breath! You didn't let us down!

Most of us need sticks to stop us falling over, when we get bumped! Apart from that, it just makes us feel good, helps keep your hands warm, and gives us something to do with our hands.

And since your centre of gravity rarely gets more than about 30" off the snow, you would not be a prime candidate for sticks.

For the uninitiated, you need to watch Trenchers Ski & Board mixed avatar, which was panned by Admin, (quite rightly, it made my eyes sore Just searched for it but couldn't find it.

Re:Pole Planting

Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:40:51 GMT

ellistine wrote:as my girlfriend does, just counting - 1,2,3 turn 1,2,3 turn. She does this out loud which can seem a bit odd but it works for her

Nothing wrong with that. I have to verbalise every movement. My wife thinks I'm a right wally.

"and UP and plant and down and so one"

Re:Pole Planting

Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:04:10 GMT

Brucie wrote:The video illustrates a subtle change in ski-ing technique which has developed from racing in the past few years.
Prior to this change the shoulders were used in a counter rotational manner to assist upper and lower body separation(shoulders to ze valley!!).
The change to which I refer is that throughout phase 2 of the turn( the apex) the outside shoulder comes around with the outside or uphill ski.(It has been described to me as a slow punching movement).
By looking to plant the pole ahead, this movement should remain smooth and rhythmical and the pole plant willprevent over rotation.
God, that sounds really technical, but it does work!!

Text Book Terry!!!

That's what I was looking for, thanks. Actually I think there are some other things that the arm movement also accomplishes, but let's just consider that aspect. Do you need poles in your hands to make that movement ? As there is no actual pole plant (or anything close), wouldn't the skilled racer make this movement anyway ?

Trencher

Re:Pole Planting

Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:16:40 GMT

Dave Mac wrote:
For the uninitiated, you need to watch Trenchers Ski & Board mixed avatar, which was panned by Admin, (quite rightly, it made my eyes sore Just searched for it but couldn't find it.

Take a couple of pain killers dave. Headache comming on ? (I think it was banned, not panned)

Trencher

Re:Pole Planting

Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:37:06 GMT

I always thought of it as a tool for beating pesky boarders. I use em' for positioning, put the right in and make the turn, left turn etc etc. I will take a look at those movies
I just did. Are you supposed to ride your edges like that? The awesomeness amazes me

Re:Pole Planting

Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:07:16 GMT

I use them to push me up when I fall over...

Re:Pole Planting

Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:15:33 GMT

Going back to when I was taught to ski 7 years ago, I was always told to use my upper body and arms for helping with balance and making turns. For a long time, I swung my shoulders far too much, but got to grips with that last year. A lot of emphasis was put on where you put your hands and using them to point into turns somewhat.
I was also taught pole planting at the end of my first weeks lessons, but never took it on board back then, and its only in the past couple of weeks skiing that I have been trying to teach myself to use the poles more, and i have to say that on certain types of slope, I find this really useful.
I couldnt ski without poles, my daughter on the other hand finds it hard to ski with them. I dont think there is a right or wrong answer, it all depends on what suits you individually.

Re:Pole Planting

Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:51:28 GMT

I am so glad the usual Bods decided to get involved in this conversation -I hoped Trencher, Tony, ise etc would help guide us to the right answer. I think they all deserve a 5* for their posts.

I am not commenting - I use mine to either stop me falling over, leaning on when I am tired, might pole plant on an easy slope, catch mice and rats that run around the balcony of an apartment (yes the last is true!!)

Re:Pole Planting

Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:38:01 GMT

Ski poles dont however appear to like drunk Danish blokes skiing straight at them at 50mph, as this proves:

Had I been a few inches to my left, I might not ever have skied again.

Re:Pole Planting

Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:49:13 GMT

Just to make clear. I am not against skiers using poles. Just the assumption that poles are need to ski well in some conditions. Beyond that I would say that when we see phantom pole plants like the ones in the first video (of WC skiers free skiing), the movements have nothing to do with the poles at all. In the carving cup race series the skiers make similar movements, but unencumbered by poles the movements are more flowing and natural. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zj7fkilZLo

Trencher

Re:Pole Planting

Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:21:10 GMT

Wow

What a lively discussion abot a simple topic.

Just a suggestion to reinforce the fact that a good ski pro will solve the smallest of woes. I've been on the boards for some time now and still like to keep up by taking a finesse lesson about every two seasons or so. It's usually because equipement has changed or I've got sloppy .

Here's a good link to see the CSIA way to ski. View the video shorts to see the various stages of skiing and observe. Mimic what you see on the hill and you will do do fine.

http://www.snowpro.com/csia/e/apre-ski-video-gallery.html

Re:Pole Planting

Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:42:31 GMT

JamesA wrote:Wow

What a lively discussion abot a simple topic.

I really want to emphasise that I not trying to upset anyone with my arguments. I Just wanted to present an alternative view.

Trencher

Re:Pole Planting

Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:27:48 GMT

Trencher,

I am so pleased that you presented the alternative view.

Pole planting always seemed unnatural on a groomed piste to me. I agree with whats been said about the arm movements and I try to do that.

You have just made me feel better in that it seemed to me to be wrong to not want to pole plant even though I could see top skiers not doing it (both videos).

I'll keep it in mind though to reinforce the arm movement.

Thanks

Re:Pole Planting

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:14:24 GMT

Trencher wrote:Just to make clear. I am not against skiers using poles. Just the assumption that poles are need to ski well in some conditions. Trencher

When I started to read this thread I felt myself taking a certain 'position' but after reading all the posts I'm inclined to agree with Trencher.

I'm fairly sure that when I'm carving on groomed runs that I make a pole plant type movement without actually planting my pole.

I would say though that if you dont learn to plant your pole at an intermediate level you will always struggle to ski bumps or very steep slopes. So perhaps its a case of using pole plants selectively rather than never using them at all.... possibly.....maybe....

Re:Pole Planting

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:44:16 GMT

Neiltoo wrote:
I would say though that if you dont learn to plant your pole at an intermediate level you will always struggle to ski bumps or very steep slopes.

Couldn't agree more.

Re:Pole Planting

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:34:26 GMT

Just so you know that I practice what I preach, here's my run on our local (simple) carving cup style race from last Sunday. I'm not much of a racer, but it's a lot of fun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSrUR7L870Q&feature=PlayList&p=149EfD699176B898&index=1

Trencher

Re:Pole Planting

Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:01:41 GMT

Looks pretty good to me (although i think you would ski better with poles)

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 00:44:01 GMT

Trencher wrote:Just so you know that I practice what I preach, here's my run on our local (simple) carving cup style race from last Sunday. I'm not much of a racer, but it's a lot of fun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS7UR7Lnt0Q&feature=PlayList&p=149EBD699176B899&index=1

Trencher

Do you see a use for poles when skiing moguls, or powder?

I don't make much use of my poles on groomers, but when the going gets tough I find skiing without them pretty difficult.

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 01:23:32 GMT

Gooseh wrote:
Do you see a use for poles when skiing moguls, or powder?

I don't make much use of my poles on groomers, but when the going gets tough I find skiing without them pretty difficult.

TBH I don't do moguls. Can't see the point, because it's not fun. Powder is another matter. I prefer to board on powder, but if I ski, I take poles. Not because I use them skiing so much, but they are great for standing up and moving around when you can't skate.

Really, I live for the carve. I'm not very interested in anything else. To carve is divine, to skid is human. When I go out west, I'm the only one hoping for it not to snow. I want icey groomers.

Trencher

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 07:25:29 GMT

Trencher wrote:

TBH I don't do moguls. Can't see the point, because it's not fun. Powder is another matter. I prefer to board on powder, but if I ski, I take poles. Not because I use them skiing so much, but they are great for standing up and moving around when you can't skate.

Really, I live for the carve. I'm not very interested in anything else. To carve is divine, to skid is human. When I go out west, I'm the only one hoping for it not to snow. I want icey groomers.

Trencher

Poor Trencher, not getting the buzz from skiing the zipper line down a bump field. You would hate European skiing, we let em grow naturally, and folks ski what's there.

Here's one I tackled in 2006, and I think ise is also somewhere in the photo. It was icy and fun

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:11:38 GMT

My limited experience with off piste involved the biggest mogul field I could have imagined ever! I had never been taught to do steeps or moguls, and I have to say it certainly wasnt "enjoyable" at the time, but having got to the bottom without incident, I went straight back up to the top and did it again, as there was a huge sense of achievement in it. Had you shown me it from this side before I went down, there is no way I would have considered myself able to get down it. My poles however were my best friends on the way down here, I used them on the steeps (as I had seen on the Warren Miller DVD) and also I found they just made me feel more confident, and I found myself doing lots more pole planting on the pisted sections after that strangely.

This is what I found myself on:

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:44:50 GMT

Gooseh wrote:
Do you see a use for poles when skiing moguls, or powder?

Any terrain other than the completely flat is going to need poles. I can ski backwards, on one ski taking photographs on easy terrain but it doesn't make it a good idea or a realistic technique if you want to ski the whole mountain. That said some of the local boys can ski some impressive stuff backwards

Moguls and powder are fun if you can do them and for that you need a fully developed all round technique, trying to ski without poles is going mean moguls never will be fun and you'd never be able to ski powder.

TonyH wrote:I went straight back up to the top and did it again, as there was a huge sense of achievement in it.

That seems to reflect what I'd expect to be a normal approach, that desire to be challenged by the terrain and ski the whole mountain. The "All Mountain Skier" book is much recommended here, the emphasis being on All Mountain.

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:43:52 GMT

Didn't say I can't do moguls, just that I don't. I don't spend boring hours on the step master at the gym either

Trencher

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:19:47 GMT

Trencher wrote:Didn't say I can't do moguls, just that I don't. I don't spend boring hours on the step master at the gym either

Trencher

I can't see the connection with a stair master I'm afraid.

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:06:37 GMT

I think its a case of choosing not to do something that a lot of others do. No particular connection between the 2.

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:10:07 GMT

Tony_H wrote:I think its a case of choosing not to do something that a lot of others do. No particular connection between the 2.

ah, I see, that's illuminating. So, is it like my decision, after a lot of soul searching, that I'm going to be too busy next year to prepare and I'm not going to win a gold in mens downhill at the next Olympics?

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:13:09 GMT

ise wrote:

Tony_H wrote:I think its a case of choosing not to do something that a lot of others do. No particular connection between the 2.

ah, I see, that's illuminating. So, is it like my decision, after a lot of soul searching, that I'm going to be too busy next year to prepare and I'm not going to win a gold in mens downhill at the next Olympics?

You know the answer to that one, dont you?

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:33:03 GMT

ise wrote:
I can't see the connection with a stair master I'm afraid.

That's why you like bumps and I don't. After 5 mins I find both bumps and exercise machines just as boring

Trencher

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:44:05 GMT

ise wrote:

...... after a lot of soul searching, that I'm going to be too busy next year to prepare and I'm not going to win a gold in mens downhill at the next Olympics?

I'm sorry to hear that Ise, do you think the bookies will give me my money back

I, too, find it hard to understand the concept of moguls being boring but each to their own. I'm reliably informed that there are many concepts that I don't comprehend.

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:47:03 GMT

Neiltoo wrote:

ise wrote:

...... after a lot of soul searching, that I'm going to be too busy next year to prepare and I'm not going to win a gold in mens downhill at the next Olympics?

I'm sorry to hear that Ise, do you think the bookies will give me my money back

my fans, Sid and Doris Bonkers, are gutted and Ginsters Pies have pulled their sponsorship deal so that's 25p I'll not be seeing

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:12:53 GMT

ise wrote:

Neiltoo wrote:

ise wrote:

...... after a lot of soul searching, that I'm going to be too busy next year to prepare and I'm not going to win a gold in mens downhill at the next Olympics?

I'm sorry to hear that Ise, do you think the bookies will give me my money back

my fans, Sid and Doris Bonkers, are gutted and Ginsters Pies have pulled their sponsorship deal so that's 25p I'll not be seeing

I'm so disappointed that I won't get to see you in a skinsuit now I could send you the 25p if you'll reconsider

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:21:20 GMT

I don't think my knee's are up to moguls anymore, but you can have my 25p to put ise in a skin suit.

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:58:16 GMT

Ian Wickham wrote:I don't think my knee's are up to moguls anymore, but you can have my 25p to put ise in a skin suit.

it could happen, there was some talk of doing the PdG 2010

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:09:03 GMT

ise wrote:

Ian Wickham wrote:I don't think my knee's are up to moguls anymore, but you can have my 25p to put ise in a skin suit.

it could happen, there was some talk of doing the PdG 2010

Though you'll need a sponsor more in keeping with the event. Ginsters Pies, I just can't see it somehow

In fact, if you want to do the PdG, no more pies for you at all

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:00:09 GMT

So anyway you guys I have got some bad video of me skiing. Any comments or advice would be most welcome.

The ironic thing is I had picked up the wrong poles at a coffee stop without realising. Some poor kid somewhere was trying to ski with poles much too big for him! I didn't notice for an hour or so.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ggXnPxlnEAQ&feature=channel_page

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:33:07 GMT

Hard to see much in the ski vid, but the bike vid is excellent. I haven't ridden bikes for twenty years or so, but I found my head swaying from side to side as you went through the essses Nice riding.

Trencher

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:37:27 GMT

Thanks Trencher. I should mention that I'm the guy in front with the dodgy white leathers. A friend of mine is on the camera bike.

On the bike I need a body position like Rossi or stoner and on the skis like Bayliss or Sheene. I think.

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:41:29 GMT

Which reminds me of this post a while back.

http://www.j2ski.com/ski-chat-forum/posts/list/4545.page#24022

Angulating on skis is a bit like dropping your hip ala Sheene (as you said).

Trencher

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:02:43 GMT

My girlfriend moves her shoulders when turning which takes the weight off the leading leg and makes it hard for her to turn. So last night an Instructor told her to plant her pole and go round it, if the other arm was trailing she was told to keep the arm up as if to carry a tray. (does that make sence)

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 20 Dec 2008 17:40:25 GMT

Trencher,

When you were learning to ski, and I mean from intermediate stage up to very confident and competent, ~ did you use poles?

Re:Pole Planting

Sat, 20 Dec 2008 18:38:18 GMT

Dave Mac wrote:Trencher,

When you were learning to ski, and I mean from intermediate stage up to very confident and competent, ~ did you use poles?

I never used poles, preferring to let my my arms move to where they best work for balance and weighting. I often experiment with upper body rotation and hip counter. That's why I don't see that poles are needed to direct movement. I also think that without poles you must develop the ability to skate on your skis. These skating movements can be Incorporated subtly into many skiing maneuvers. I do think the need for control in the lift line and generally moving around without poles develops better ski awareness or least more quickly.

Bob

Re:Pole Planting

Tue, 23 Dec 2008 13:42:22 GMT

Pole Planting, or the move on longer turns, very important IMV

Re:Pole Planting

Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:18:04 GMT

Trencher wrote:

Dave Mac wrote:Trencher,

When you were learning to ski, and I mean from intermediate stage up to very confident and competent, ~ did you use poles?

I never used poles, preferring to let my my arms move to where they best work for balance and weighting.

would that mean you didn't have lessons? I can't see any main stream school giving lessons without poles, it's not part of CSIA or PSIA teaching practise I'm fairly certain.

Re:Pole Planting

Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:59:23 GMT

ise wrote:
would that mean you didn't have lessons? I can't see any main stream school giving lessons without poles, it's not part of CSIA or PSIA teaching practice I'm fairly certain.

Deliberately. I wanted skiing to be an experiment in guided discovery and cross benching concepts from snowboarding. I didn't want to pick up any bad habits from instructors Actually, what I mean is that I didn't want to be infuenced by conventional technique as taught by most instructors. Of course I have been inflenced to some degree as I pick and choose ideas from observation, reading, and technical discussion with people who are instructors and coaches. I don't just want to know how to do something, I want to understand it at the conceptual level. I don't accept technique at face value, I need to break it down and see what's really happening.

Aside from that, I didn't want to drive some poor concrete sequential instructor nuts with my questioning

Trencher

Re:Pole Planting

Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:26:05 GMT

Trencher wrote: I don't just want to know how to do something, I want to understand it at the conceptual level. I don't accept technique at face value, I need to break it down and see what's really happening.

Aside from that, I didn't want to drive some poor concrete sequential instructor nuts with my questioning

Trencher

Trencher, pretty well none of my ski learning has been what you define as "concrete sequential". I did however get to attend evening seminars after lessons, on ski structure, what sidecuts do, servicing skis, video analysis of the days' classes, plus slideshows showing carving, angulation, just general background stuff like that

Mind you, these were BASI Grade 1 teachers by and large, (occ. Gr2) very keen. I only know of one personally who I could recommend to you in the USA.

You don't paint a very positive picture of US teaching methods.

Re:Pole Planting

Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:59:02 GMT

bandit wrote:
You don't paint a very positive picture of US teaching methods.

I'm sure US instructors are as good as any. I'm talking about formalised instruction programs of any kind. I do have some experience of sports instruction UK and US.

Instruction programs do a great job, but they are a mass production machine. Except at the highest levels, independent thinking is discouraged. For this reason they are inflexible and slow to change. Many instructors are very concrete sequential and that often serves the programs well.
Having observed that in so many sports, the greatest innovation seldom if ever comes from the instruction programs, I see real benefit in an independent path. That's not to say any that another person would be served well by avoiding instruction, but it was something I wanted to experiment with, believing that I am equiped to do so.

Trencher

Re:Pole Planting

Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:15:36 GMT

Trencher wrote:

ise wrote:
would that mean you didn't have lessons? I can't see any main stream school giving lessons without poles, it's not part of CSIA or PSIA teaching practice I'm fairly certain.

Deliberately. I wanted skiing to be an experiment in guided discovery and cross benching concepts from snowboarding. I didn't want to pick up any bad habits from instructors Actually, what I mean is that I didn't want to be infuenced by conventional technique as taught by most instructors. Of course I have been inflenced to some degree as I pick and choose ideas from observation, reading, and technical discussion with people who are instructors and coaches. I don't just want to know how to do something, I want to understand it at the conceptual level. I don't accept technique at face value, I need to break it down and see what's really happening.

all of which an instructor can do, that's why it's so hard to become one

this isn't 30 years when anyone could turn up and if they'd got a ski school jacket in the right size you were in, it's a modern professional thing now constantly evolving and instructors are required to keep up. Even at the cutting edge they're all using poles of course

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 24 Dec 2008 01:16:19 GMT

Apologies, I am thread-stealing because another thread got locked out, before I could answer it.

Trencher asked the question ~ "What is the fundamental flaw in hip counter ?"

I was really sorry to read the inconsiderate and rude replies to this. It just isn't necessary.

Right, back to the question. For me personally, there is an increasing difficulty with using hip counter, because age hits me two fold, the muscle strength required to effect the required body spring tension, and also the mobility issue.

But you are asking for the fundamental flaw, not a personal constraint. I had to think this right through the manouvre. The only issue I could think is that when you carry out the hip counter, if it is too dynamic, or on too steep a slope, or on unstable snow, or a combination of these.....

You might start an avalanche.

That may not be what you had in mind Trencher, but it's my conclusion. If it is not what you had in mind then I would be pleased to know what you think.

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 24 Dec 2008 01:30:48 GMT

Disregarding the above post as I believe that Admin locking it was justified and maybe we should adhere by the rules of the board or at least what has been decided upon.

As well as many development programmes encourage independent thinking the CSIA (as well as others, I would imagine) encourage it with a "if it works for you, do it" attitude. It is not a set progressive teaching model, if someone comes and they can make parallel turns for example then we don't make them work through the progression from the beginning, we are taught to work with what we are given. In terms of technical progression the view is also that as long as someone does eventually visit Point B from Point A it is not so important how they get there, be it via point C or by the crow flight.

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 24 Dec 2008 02:27:22 GMT

I think all babies should be sent to school so they can learn to walk "properly", and without learning "bad habits." We can't have individuality!

OK. All sarcasm aside: There are many ways to get to the same point. Human bodies (and minds) are ALL different. Some people learn to ride a bike without training wheels. Some need the wheels. Why is the self-initiated route looked down on? Maybe it is in the creative mind to find a better, or at least different way?

I, personally, don't find pole planting to be a benefit, but I don't condemn those who do. And, I certainly don't try to tell them why they have to, or why they are a bad skier because they don't pole plant. I do find it interesting that no other sport requires the use of an apparatus to know how to change body posture. . .

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 24 Dec 2008 02:39:35 GMT

Edit to remove post.

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 24 Dec 2008 04:57:44 GMT

Pole planting is great, I love doing it and after my mini vacation last Saturday I GREATLY improved my planting and carving. Even though I didn't get past the greens. I honed my skills. But yeah moving th hips in conjunction with the poles is a fantastic symphony.

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 24 Dec 2008 08:26:10 GMT

Dshenberger wrote:

I, personally, don't find pole planting to be a benefit, but I don't condemn those who do. And, I certainly don't try to tell them why they have to, or why they are a bad skier because they don't pole plant. I do find it interesting that no other sport requires the use of an apparatus to know how to change body posture. . .

I can't quite see the logic in your last sentence. To me, poles are an aid to skiing, for steeps, bumps, flat sections, for balance and support. I can ski okay without them, but why would I want to, it's a PITA.

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:59:26 GMT

I'm sure I'll be accused of being a 'sheep', and just blindly following the norm, but show me an expert downhill skiier, or slalom skiier, or extreme skiier, who is carrying poles 'cos he/she thinks they're an attractive accessory, and I'll stop using them.

This being said, me as an pretty good intermediate, mostly drag them along the ground, until I get to a slope needing a bit more control, ie, moguls.

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 24 Dec 2008 10:14:33 GMT

If anyones interested I got my Snowsport England Log Book in the post the other day

If your really interested its Christmas Day tomorrow and if you carry on "being very naughty boys" Santa will not visit you

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 24 Dec 2008 14:37:07 GMT

bandit wrote: I can ski okay without them, but why would I want to, it's a PITA.

That's really all I've been saying, That's it's possible to ski ok without them. Other people have been saying that good skiing is not posssible without poles.

Trencher

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 24 Dec 2008 14:47:20 GMT

mfc wrote:

If your really interested its Christmas Day tomorrow and if you carry on "being very naughty boys" Santa will not visit you

What about those of us who are being very naughty girls, will Santa be coming?

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 24 Dec 2008 14:55:36 GMT

Trencher wrote:

bandit wrote: I can ski okay without them, but why would I want to, it's a PITA.

That's really all I've been saying, That's it's possible to ski ok without them. Other people have been saying that good skiing is not posssible without poles.

Trencher

You would not enjoy most of the skiing I do if you lacked poles. I fell over on Saturday and tried to stand up, sank in up to my backside on one leg. The only way to get back to my skis was to crawl. Poles get used in all sorts of ways, last Sat I made a + from mine in order to stand up
I would say that, some skiing can be done okay without poles. Most of the advancement in recreational skiing starts with racing. I don't see any of the alpine disciplines, losing the sticks just yet.

Re:Pole Planting

Wed, 24 Dec 2008 16:07:37 GMT

bandit wrote:

it's a PITA.

Haha! That's the key. Yes, I ski with poles. Last year, I stopped to help a girl get her skis back, and she had no poles. I loaned her one of mine because she couldn't get up, and get her ski on. It was her first time skiing, and her boyfriend told her it would be easier without poles. I thought that was kind of ridiculous. Skating through a lift line when you have no experience is kind of a pain. . .

Pole Planting

Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:49:12 GMT

I use my poles for feeling the surface in front of me, for timing, sometimes shoving off, as my pivot point on jump turns, thwacking girls bottoms, blocking branches/poles, getting back up (especially in powder).
Whilst I agree that poles aren't necessary they are a great tool - not vital but makes thing a lot easier.

Re:Pole Planting

Mon, 29 Dec 2008 22:50:32 GMT

The most important question is, can hip counter be used to generate more efficiency when turning?

Re:Pole Planting

Tue, 30 Dec 2008 09:16:13 GMT

bennyboy wrote:The most important question is, can hip counter be used to generate more efficiency when turning?

Oooh you're brave bennyboy. I don't know what it is as I'm way down the ski skill level list but 'hip counter' seems to cause major ructions on this forum.

Re:Pole Planting

Tue, 30 Dec 2008 09:17:13 GMT

For me personally, a more important question is what is hip counter?

I'm self taught...

Re:Pole Planting

Sun, 15 Feb 2009 05:26:38 GMT

Some posts just list uses for poles, but the question is, what is the pole PLANt for?

One possible response is that it can help "force" you to use the correct motion and balance better. But in that case the plant itself has no value.

I think I can see a value in the pole plant when it is steep, because when initiating your turn, you can be more aggressive in leaning into it, because you have a way to "push back" against your lean if you need to. By leaning more into it you can make a quicker turn, avoid facing straight downhill longer than you need to, thereby keeping a manageable speed.

so there is an argument for a value to the pole plant that you can't have without poles

Pole Planting

Mon, 23 Feb 2009 00:01:02 GMT

and... one other thing, the pole plant gives your hand something to "push off" against, which helps rotate your torso, since you have your arm as a lever