Latest posts for the topic "Pole position (excuse the pun)"

Pole position (excuse the pun)

dixielad_915 — GMT

After just spending a week in france working hard on my technique (picked up from this forum of course) I thought I was progressing reasonably well. I can handle most slopes and ski at a speed that I feel comfortable and in control. However towards the end of the week, some of the group told me that I was throwing my ski poles around like a mad man, much to their amusement! This led to think about how I position my poles while skiing. There is a lot of talk and discussion about the pole plant and when and how you do it. I don't recall much (if any) discussion about what to do with your poles the rest of the time. What should you do with your poles after the plant and what position do you hold them in? or does it really matter as long as you don't poke someones eye out!!

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

freezywater — GMT

you could always just ignore your mates and tell 'em that it works for Bode so it'll work for you :lol:

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

dixielad_915 — GMT

haha, yes I did ignore them, but did not think of as good a reply as that one. mental note...

Re:Poles

pavelski — GMT

There is an excellent exercise all ski instructors know, to teach skiers correct pole position and correct hand position! You see pole position and hand position are very much interrelated! Think of the pole like a "indicator" of your correct ski technique. One of the major indicators of an expert skier is "those quiet hands"! What does that mean? Arms and hands are steady, moving very evenly and softly! More like caresses! The poles should be parallel close to body, pointing downward towards snow surface! All that waving with poles is lost energy! Is dangerous to others and to you! You will soon find out ! It indicates how you are constantly moving about your upper body! Pretend you are carrying a tray with one half full glass in the center! Now ski in this manner. This is still a common certification test for ski instructors! Really! They are given a plastic tray with one plastic glass with wine half full! They must ski down an expert run without spilling wine!!!! All who fail must pay other instructors some wine!!! Try this other exercise. Take poles and place them on your palms which are facing to heaven! ( UP)! Now ski never allowing poles to fall off palms! Note I said palms NOT fist,,thus poles are free moving! This will teach you to have 'quiet' hands and also quiet torso!!! PS. Bode Miller is Bode! Unique, special! Always on the edge..... Nobody skis like him,,even the top ski racers of all other nations! Do not even try to ski like him!!!

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Iceman — GMT

What is the purpose of poles apart from push you along and stopping you from falling over on a green run? :oops:

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Trencher — GMT

Iceman wrote:

What is the purpose of poles apart from push you along and stopping you from falling over on a green run? :oops:

I didn't say it Trencher

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

iLoveSkiing — GMT

Thanks Pavel for offering the tip.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Colin L — GMT

Iceman wrote:

What is the purpose of poles apart from push you along and stopping you from falling over on a green run? :oops:

IS that a serious question or a wind-up? If it's serious, I'll give you an answer.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

dixielad_915 — GMT

Thanks for the advice pavel, I spent the last trip (between enjoying myself of course) on making sure I face down the mountain. No sooner had I ticked that off the list, then I have been given another problem to work on. That exercise with the open hand sounds just the ticket for me. I'm away to austria in a few weeks so I will make sure and focus on keeping a still upper body and keep those hands steady. Thanks again

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Colin L — GMT

I hope you weren't facing down the hill all the time! You shouldn't be separating the upper body on long radius turns, for instance.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Trencher — GMT

Colin L wrote:

Iceman wrote:

What is the purpose of poles apart from push you along and stopping you from falling over on a green run? :oops:
IS that a serious question or a wind-up? If it's serious, I'll give you an answer.

Don't mean to troll, but for me, that's always a serious question :?: Trencher

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

bennyboy — GMT

Poles are for stability, a strong pole plant in short radius turns helps you recentre yourself for the next turn. As for pole position, the main movement of the pole plant come from the wrist, the arms should only move to bring the pole forward, the plant itself is totally wrist movement (or at least should be!) Keep your arms and poles forward all the time, keeps you in balance.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Trencher — GMT

Thanks for the explanation bennyboy. Just a few comments...

bennyboy wrote:

Poles are for stability,

You'll fall over without them ?

bennyboy wrote:

a strong pole plant in short radius turns helps you recentre yourself for the next turn.

You can't do this without a pole ?

bennyboy wrote:

the arms should only move to bring the pole forward,

So the pole is determining the arm movement, not balance, weighting and rotation ? Pretty much comfirms my contention that in most on piste situations using modern equipment, Instructors have come up with things to do with the poles because they're there, not because they're needed. ) Trencher

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Hirsty — GMT

I call them my rhythm sticks as they greatly aid my timing. They are also great as a feeler - testing the state of the snow infront of you.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Iceman — GMT

Trencher wrote:

Colin L wrote:

Iceman wrote:

What is the purpose of poles apart from push you along and stopping you from falling over on a green run? :oops:
IS that a serious question or a wind-up? If it's serious, I'll give you an answer.
Don't mean to troll, but for me, that's always a serious question :?: Trencher

It was a serious question. I find them good for rhythm and 'feeling safe'. When ppl learn these days they are tiught without poles. Is this to cvoncentrate on the skiing and not the rhythm sticks (I am sure there is a song about that....hit me with your rhythm stick,,,hit me :D )

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Trencher — GMT

So everyone is fixated on rythem. Skiing with rythem goes with the feet together, bum twitching, skidded turn, style that has mostly died out. Skiing now should be about flowing down the hill, using the contours of the hill, not ignoring them for some artificial timing. It's the same as my argument against poles, your body movements are being dictated by rythem and not what is most efficient or appropriate for that moment. Trencher

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Trencher — GMT

Iceman wrote:

When ppl learn these days they are tiught without poles. Is this to cvoncentrate on the skiing and not the rhythm sticks (I am sure there is a song about that....hit me with your rhythm stick,,,hit me :D )

I think that when people use poles while learning, they miss out on learning a lot of subtle ski control. Just learning to skate and manauver in the lift queue w/o poles, provides control experiences that are part of the being one with the skis. Trencher

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Iceman — GMT

I miss the good old days of falling over in the lift queue and not being able to stand up....poles probably caused it! :oops:

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Hirsty — GMT

I would say rhythm is as important to skiing now as it has always been. Trust me, I don't ski feet together (there is a time and a place for skidding though). However, I like to be in control and using a rhythmical style definitely allows me to do this.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Trencher — GMT

OK. Each to his own. I just like to give some alternative thoughts. Trencher

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Dshenberger — GMT

I know you were all ripping on Bode Miller for flailing his poles, but here is an interesting video demonstrating his pole planting views. http://youtube.com/watch?v=2KAtSx0SnPs I think Trencher must have had a bad experience with ski poles as a child. ;) I have to say that sometimes poles are a nuisance, and I have been tempted to just not use them, but they do make it easier to get out of your skis. Just because you are carrying poles does not mean you can't skate. I hate pushing myself around with my poles! Another use is if you happen to fall and lose a ski, it gives you a way to get extra support to get back in. Or, in one case I loaned a pole to a girl who was skiing for her first time, and her boyfriend told her she didn't need poles. I don't know why he didn't hike back up the hill to help her get back in her ski. . . As for rhythm - I was always fond of a little rubato. :)

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Colin L — GMT

Iceman wrote:

It was a serious question.

OK so here is one aspect of pole planting: it helps in the process of edge changing. Try standing on your skis as if in the final part of your arc. Now make the movements of the pole plant while looking at your skis. As you move the pole into the plant, you should see your skis will start to flatten a bit. Just one part of the whole business of flowing (yes flowing Trencher!) into the next turn, but helpful. As to flow and rhythm, well what's the difference. I like to go for a rhythmic flow. :wink:

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

dixielad_915 — GMT

I seem to have generated a bit of debate there with my initial question. As a relatively new skier, I can relate to what trencher is talking about. In fact when I was first taught to ski, my poles were taken off me after a day as they were just another thing to have to think about and were limiting my progress. I was then only reunited with my poles once I had learnt the feel of the skis when turning, the transition of weight etc. I will stand by that inital day or so of skiing without poles as I progressed more that day than any other single day since. Indeed I was even thinking about not using my poles on my last trip there, however it is all the little small points that everyone has brought up that make your poles so useful such as getting out of your skis etc. My problem which I will just have to work on, was what I did with my poles after one pole plant to the other. We were skiing in fresh snow which just turned to moguls after a few hours and I think I was just enjoying myself a bit too much and throwing my poles around!

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Dave Mac — GMT

We often see skiers who have a good and attractive ski technique ~ except for the pole action. Respectfully suggest: For most of the turn the poles are held at body angle or slightly less steeper than body angle, and with tips slightly further out from the grips. Approaching the end of the turn, you are comfortable with your speed control, smoothly move the outside stick forwards, (finishing a left turn, move the right stick. Plant the stick around 6 inches to side of the ski front. Carry out the weight change, smoothly moving the outside ski,knee,hip forwards. Depending on your technique there will also be a change in angulation. You have now committed to the opposite turn, and have passed the stick tip, so now now the stick is angled with your body again. When going straight line fast on a schuss, never stab the stick between the skis in front of you, especially if your hand is low. It is several days before your eyes cease watering.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

82ross — GMT

Dshenberger wrote:

I know you were all ripping on Bode Miller for flailing his poles, but here is an interesting video demonstrating his pole planting views. http://youtube.com/watch?v=2KAtSx0SnPs

So who here double pole plants like bode on this video and who single pole plants? Any technical pro's and con's of each or is it just a personal preference?

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

bennyboy — GMT

Trencher i'm just quoting what some of Canada's top skiers and the CSIA say. if there was no need for poles, why would they even have been put into skiing?

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Trencher — GMT

bennyboy wrote:

Trencher i'm just quoting what some of Canada's top skiers and the CSIA say. if there was no need for poles, why would they even have been put into skiing?

Well, I remember reading about Sir Arthur Conan Doyle in Davos (credited with introducing alpine skiing to the Brits). They used a long single pole to push themselves along ala a punt on a river.I think they also used it as a rudder (a brake on one side). My guess is that two poles then made more sense for pushing yourself along on the flats. Now you've got these two poles in your hands, what do you do with them when going down hill ? Bearing in mind that skis consisted of two planks of wood with a point on the end that would be very hard to turn, Someone discovered that you could aid turning by planting a pole and pivoting around it. Basically, it again works as a brake. Then as skiing progressed and skis became more turn friendly, other things were thought up to make use of the poles that had been needed for the flats. The primary reason for poles is still to push yourself around. If I go touring or do powder on skis, then I would always take poles. If snowboarding had evolved before skiing and the first skis were like this years models with young people only using them, no one would be using poles on piste. When I'm a very old man who can't get up after a fall on the flat without the use of a pole, I may start using them on piste. Until then I don't need to carry around a crutch ) Trencher

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Trencher — GMT

82ross wrote:

Dshenberger wrote:

I know you were all ripping on Bode Miller for flailing his poles, but here is an interesting video demonstrating his pole planting views. http://youtube.com/watch?v=2KAtSx0SnPs
So who here double pole plants like bode on this video and who single pole plants? Any technical pro's and con's of each or is it just a personal preference?

Now people have said that pole plants help them with timing. In the pole plant instruction video it is quite clear that the pole plant is timed to the turn of the skis and not the other way round. At no time did they say the timing of the turn is to be determined by the pole plant. It's just finding something to do with the pole while you are skiing. Do you really think Bode needed pole plants to make those turns ? or would he have swing the poles like that off camera ? Spot all the pole plants Bode makes here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNIiCOesUEo He must be having a lot of trouble with his timing :lol:. OK, he did need the poles for thier proper purpose at the start - pushing off Trencher

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Dshenberger — GMT

You are quite amusing, Trencher! I am nearly convinced to never us poles again! I will try it my first day at Heavenly. Especially, since my shoulder still isn't healed, and I don't want to do anything to mess it up again. :) As for Bode: I think he just does whatever he has to to get down the mountain! He is an innovator, and a natural at making his way down fast. You did bring to mind another point for poles, though. Those gates have to hurt at 60+, and the poles seem like the best solution to taking a beating.

Re:Pole position or plant

pavelski — GMT

Interesting reading on subject! The Pole Plant in Modern Technique by Greg Gurshman I believe it is hardly a secret that pole plants have been used by ski racers for a very long time in slalom and GS. However, while conducting coaching seminars in US and Canada, I have discovered a number of misconceptions about the use of the pole plant in modern technique. Many coaches and ski instructors believe that for making carved turns on modern slalom skis the pole plant is not needed. Some go even further to say that the racers do not even use the pole plants any longer. Others are still of the opinion that the pole plant is still used primarily for turning the skis. In this article I will try to highlight the incorrect nature of these erroneous assumptions. First of all, I would like to point out that while I will be talking about the use of a pole plant in slalom, most of what will be said here applies to GS and even the speed disciplines. The evolution of ski equipment has resulted in contemporary super-G and DH courses with plenty of complete round turns in them. In order to efficiently link the arcs of such round turns ski racers often use a pole plant or a pole touch, even in speed events. Speaking of slalom, we can say that the pole plant is generally used most of the time everywhere, except for straight flat sections of the course. To emphasize the necessity of a pole plant, Austrian coaches often repeat the saying: “if you left your pole plant at home, run there and get it instead of running the course”. I would recommend this little rule to all junior racers and their coaches. For a number of years before the emergence of new slalom skis with the increased side cuts, racers often used the so-called blocking pole plant. When executing the blocking pole plant the skier turns the hand and the wrist away from the body, so the pole goes into the snow not perpendicularly, but at a small angle, as I demonstrate here with my right arm (frame 4), at the bottom of the sequence:

Re:Pole position or plant

Trencher — GMT

pavelski wrote:

Interesting reading on subject! The Pole Plant in Modern Technique by Greg Gurshman Others are still of the opinion that the pole plant is still used primarily for turning the skis.

So does the pole plant have anything to do with turning the skis ? I have never read a single article that describes how the pole plant is directly related to the use of the skis. This guy just said, You need them. He did not say why. SL is of course an exception. Very occasionally you see a GS racer use a pole plant. This is rather like the people where I live and thier big pick up trucks. 364 days of the year, they drive around, doing 15 mpg in thier 5 to 7 litre mega trucks. Thier families are riding uncomfortably in the cab of thier cowboy sports cars.The most that ever goes in the back is a small tool bag or a few bags of shopping. Then one day, they need to carry a piece of new furniture or big screen TV home from the store. O boy, it's a good job they had the vehicle to do it in. Trencher

Re:Pole position or plant

Trencher — GMT

pavelski wrote:

Interesting reading on subject! The Pole Plant in Modern Technique by Greg Gurshman To emphasize the necessity of a pole plant, Austrian coaches often repeat the saying: “if you left your pole plant at home, run there and get it instead of running the course”.

Not much info here, but again, it sounds as if the pole is needed just as an aid to body movement. There are all kinds of devices people have used to teach good technique, but no one carries them around al the time. Trencher

Re:Pole position or plant

ise — GMT

Trencher wrote:

I have never read a single article that describes how the pole plant is directly related to the use of the skis.

1. a trigger point in turn initiation or a timing aid. 2. balance support, in turns with high edge set or pronounced check it's an aid to balance at the point of maximum deceleration 3. aid to leg rotation, a momentary anchor to aid leg rotation into the new direction without disrupting balance or posture. 4. momentary torque in initiating quick, tight turns.

Trencher wrote:

Very occasionally you see a GS racer use a pole plant.

Only if you're watching GS very occasionally.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Trencher — GMT

Ise, I can understand that if you ski in the back country, you need poles to get around and you may well find uses for them while descending. I should clarify that I'm talking about the regular, on piste skiing that most people do. You bring up that timing thing again though, I just don't understand that you need to swing a pole to in order for your brain to know it's time to turn or set an edge. It just looks like it's a case of finding something to do with the pole while your skiing. Swinging the pole to put your body in a certain position is using the pole as training aid. You could assume that position without encumbering yourself with poles. Jan mentions that it looks like he uses his pole to assist finishing, in his spinning a 360 video and that it shouldn't be needed. By conventional thinking on pole use, he would have been correct in using his pole to assist the spin. The alternative is that, if you don't need the pole to spin, you shouldn't use it... Trencher

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

ise — GMT

Trencher wrote:

Ise, I can understand that if you ski in the back country, you need poles to get around and you may well find uses for them while descending. I should clarify that I'm talking about the regular, on piste skiing that most people do.

And I should clarify I'm talking about what we learn when we're training to be ski instructors ) Unless you're on the flattest of slopes you need poles for all the reasons I've given, no one manages without and those that try are simply unable to handle even moderately difficult slopes at any speed.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

bandit — GMT

ise wrote:

And I should clarify I'm talking about what we learn when we're training to be ski instructors ) Unless you're on the flattest of slopes you need poles for all the reasons I've given, no one manages without and those that try are simply unable to handle even moderately difficult slopes at any speed.

So, way back in the mists of time, when I was being taught by BASI teachers, we had our poles taken off us for several days at a time. We were skiing French red grade runs (Les Arcs) carving all sized radius turns at speed. That does'nt happen these days then?

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Trencher — GMT

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Trencher — GMT

I don't know how many people here white water kayak, but it is also a sport where equipment has changed. Twenty years ago kayaks started to shrink, from 4M to 3M in length. The skills and how they were taught remained the same. Then a little over ten yeas ago, the changes became more radical, not only in length (less than 2M), but shape as well. The stroke that is used to turn a kayak is known as a sweep stroke and there was a time honoured meathod to teach that stroke. The stroke as it had been taught became redundent overnight. The people who run instruction (former olumpians and US team members) in the US continued to insist that the redundent stroke was still to be taught and was relevent. The BCU in the UK appeared to be quicker to revise thier instruction. When something is accepted as the norm for decades, it often it becomes so entrenched that no one even quieries it. Then of course there is the comparison to snowboarders, who despite the disadvantages of being perch on a single plank run just about any descent that skiers do, only without poles. Trencher

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

bandit — GMT

Poor snowboarders, no poles :( I think skiers everywhere should donate their old poles to a needy knuckledragger :D I remember my days of ski tuition with no poles as quite liberating. Definitely good discipline for quieting the upper body during a turn.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

RossF — GMT

I have so much to say on this it's unreal. Drag your pole baskets (hands forward) by the arch of your foot. Once you have planted your pole, make sure it remains in contact with the snow after the turn and drag it once more. As for your outside pole, it should always drag along the ground aswell-for purposes of a beginner/intermediate skier which i'm assuming you are.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

dixielad_915 — GMT

Rossfra8 wrote:

I have so much to say on this it's unreal. Drag your pole baskets (hands forward) by the arch of your foot. Once you have planted your pole, make sure it remains in contact with the snow after the turn and drag it once more. As for your outside pole, it should always drag along the ground aswell-for purposes of a beginner/intermediate skier which i'm assuming you are.

Thanks for that. I am a beginner heading towards intermediate level. I can go down a black but don't look pretty, that sort of level. I don't think i was keeping the outside pole in contact with the snow, which made it look like I was flapping my poles around. A few exercises on my hands position should hopefully sort that one out. So many things to do and remember....

Pole position (excuse the pun)

DaveW — GMT

pole planting posters: your a tough lot I must say! I can tell you that when your hips are whittled away and ankles so worn you fall about the bedroom putting your socks on, the last thing you look for is extensive 'carving'. Carving throws powerfull forces back into the hips/knees. I've known BASI Teachers advocate caution in teaching young children carving for that very reason. Immature joints still forming etc. All that seems to have been forgotten due to the ease carving can be done on modern gear. Time will tell on that one. Of couse, I'm talking about extreme angles of carve on that one. I also recognise that today's angles are less of a loading due to current designs of ski when skied at less than expert pace

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

ise — GMT

bandit wrote:

ise wrote:

And I should clarify I'm talking about what we learn when we're training to be ski instructors ) Unless you're on the flattest of slopes you need poles for all the reasons I've given, no one manages without and those that try are simply unable to handle even moderately difficult slopes at any speed.
So, way back in the mists of time, when I was being taught by BASI teachers, we had our poles taken off us for several days at a time. We were skiing French red grade runs (Les Arcs) carving all sized radius turns at speed. That does'nt happen these days then?

It does, all ski instructors do it but I think they're (nearly) all doing it wrong, it's clear that some (too many) students are coming away with an impression that poles are optional in some way. If that's happening then the instructor isn't communicating the purpose of the exercise and that's not going to work for a lot of students, people like you (I'm think I'm right) like to know the how and why of an exercise, some people don't of course but instructors ought to be explaining that. In part the purpose of that exercise is to learn and emphasise the PET principle (Pressure, Edge, Turn in various orders). On a uniform slope the ski will turn, or carve, wth a simple Pressure, giving Edge then a Turn. Carve turns are fun, railing at high speed even more so, but it's only one turn we use to get all over the mountain. It's around this point people get confused, get some carving skis and discard their poles. You even see it around here, I saw some people the other week doing it, peak holiday time, they probably see lessons doing it, or misunderstand their own lessons, and reckon a carving ski doesn't need a pole.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

ise — GMT

Trencher wrote:

When something is accepted as the norm for decades, it often it becomes so entrenched that no one even quieries it.

Your analogy is just plain wrong, we adapted technique and teaching a lot to deal with advances in kit. For BASI the "Central Theme" reflects what carving skis are and what they do and it's no different for CSIA or PSIA and at the ISTD levels. I think the suggestion that people who've taken training and passed exams as ski instructors lack insight into what they're learning and teaching is actually pretty insulting actually.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Trencher — GMT

I apologise, no insult was intended. I was just suggesting that sometimes instruction methods have a momentum of their own and often are slow to change or recognise new techniques. Witness how long it has taken for most ski instructors to be able to carve a clean arc, many still cannot. Trencher

Re:Pole position or plant

Trencher — GMT

pavelski wrote:

Interesting reading on subject! The Pole Plant in Modern Technique by Greg Gurshman

http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/pole_plant.htm So, I read the whole article. The main theme seems to be the use of the pole plant in recentering at transition (not timing or edge set etc). What the article fails to convey is the actual mechanics of how this is supposed to work. Is there a real physical connection between the pole and the snow that helps the skier recenter or is it the momentum of swinging the pole forward that pulls the skiers mass forward. If the later, then the same movement without the pole would accomplish the recentering. The point I have been trying to make is that so often it is not the pole plant that accomplishes whatever is intended, but the movement to make the pole plant. Trencher

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

bandit — GMT

ise wrote:

bandit wrote:

ise wrote:

And I should clarify I'm talking about what we learn when we're training to be ski instructors ) Unless you're on the flattest of slopes you need poles for all the reasons I've given, no one manages without and those that try are simply unable to handle even moderately difficult slopes at any speed.
So, way back in the mists of time, when I was being taught by BASI teachers, we had our poles taken off us for several days at a time. We were skiing French red grade runs (Les Arcs) carving all sized radius turns at speed. That does'nt happen these days then?
It does, all ski instructors do it but I think they're (nearly) all doing it wrong, it's clear that some (too many) students are coming away with an impression that poles are optional in some way. If that's happening then the instructor isn't communicating the purpose of the exercise and that's not going to work for a lot of students, people like you (I'm think I'm right) like to know the how and why of an exercise, some people don't of course but instructors ought to be explaining that. In part the purpose of that exercise is to learn and emphasise the PET principle (Pressure, Edge, Turn in various orders). On a uniform slope the ski will turn, or carve, wth a simple Pressure, giving Edge then a Turn. Carve turns are fun, railing at high speed even more so, but it's only one turn we use to get all over the mountain.

Hmmm, I'd like to think that you don't know me that well, but you are spot on with this observation :D Which is a little worrying, can I be read that easily? :shock:

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

ise — GMT

Trencher wrote:

I apologise, no insult was intended. I was just suggesting that sometimes instruction methods have a momentum of their own and often are slow to change or recognise new techniques. Witness how long it has taken for most ski instructors to be able to carve a clean arc, many still cannot.

Maybe they can't in Minnesota but I can assure they can in Europe and I know that no one will pass a PSIA certification without being able to carve a turn. All you've done is just repeat the same misconception and latch onto one single point that's been made about timing, even in this you've simply not understood what's being said. I can see it's articulated badly but it's not so very difficult. When you hear timing you seem to have an idea of rhythm, like counting 1-2-3-4 and pole planting on every other beat alternating left/right, that's not what we mean at all. This is timing just like walking, when I place my front foot on the ground and start to lift my back foot that's timing, a series of movements that happen in a sequence with one leading another.

Trencher wrote:

What the article fails to convey is the actual mechanics of how this is supposed to work. Is there a real physical connection between the pole and the snow that helps the skier recenter or is it the momentum of swinging the pole forward that pulls the skiers mass forward. If the later, then the same movement without the pole would accomplish the recentering. The point I have been trying to make is that so often it is not the pole plant that accomplishes whatever is intended, but the movement to make the pole plant.

I made three other point about pole plants which you don't seem to have understood, these were : 2. balance support, in turns with high edge set or pronounced check it's an aid to balance at the point of maximum deceleration 3. aid to leg rotation, a momentary anchor to aid leg rotation into the new direction without disrupting balance or posture. 4. momentary torque in initiating quick, tight turns. None of these are possible without actually having a pole, it's not just the movement to make the plant but the actual plant itself. I know Greg Gurshman is a highly regarded coach and trainer but I'd ignore that article, it's rambling and badly written and it's hard to determine what point he's really trying to make.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

ise — GMT

bandit wrote:

[ Hmmm, I'd like to think that you don't know me that well, but you are spot on with this observation :D Which is a little worrying, can I be read that easily? :shock:

not that much of an insight, I have skied with you :D I'd also think anyone that skis more than a couple of times a year, reads a ski forum matches that profile.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

AJ — GMT

Reading this thread really makes my head hurt, So many comments and views on what seems to be such a complex subject. Maybe ise can explain. Everywhere i have skied resort or country,i have not been taught to ski the same, Yes the basic fundamentals are the same but the technique has been different.Does this not answer the question as to why there is so much difference of opinion. QUESTION= is there not one universal method of teaching people to ski, Or will they always be variations. Comments greatly appreciated AJ Adele

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

ise — GMT

AJ wrote:

Reading this thread really makes my head hurt, So many comments and views on what seems to be such a complex subject. Maybe ise can explain. Everywhere i have skied resort or country,i have not been taught to ski the same, Yes the basic fundamentals are the same but the technique has been different.Does this not answer the question as to why there is so much difference of opinion. QUESTION= is there not one universal method of teaching people to ski, Or will they always be variations. Comments greatly appreciated AJ Adele

It's funny but I can't quite understand your question :-) The language we use is so confusing sometimes. You say technique is different, do you mean the actual ski technique or the instruction technique? I'm guessing the second one. All instructors in every country I can think of take certification which leads to ISTD level, that's an ISIA (google if you're interested) standard and it's there to make sure everything is broadly similar. At the extreme that means you're not going to book an instructor who tells you to keep your skis together on the piste or to lean back in powder. Beyond that each system has similar themes, BASI has something called the "Central Theme" which is a fairly basic set of techniques which should take the skier to advanced intermediate level, PSIA has something similar, the Swiss have an award system that does more or less the same. How an individual instructor works varies hugely, someone doing beginner group lessons each week is going to follow a lesson plan that's probably 95% based on the what that ski school finds works. Smaller groups and the instructor will start using different exercises that reflect what's worked for them in the past and where the student is struggling. There's also going to be the odd one, like me, who just can't remember all those exercises and can only recall a handful :D Luckily I'm not currently working as a ski instructor though :D I've a slight problem with a lot of these drills though, somehow the drill becomes more important than the application and you get some people who get really good at the drill and are totally incapable of applying it or can't even understand where they're supposed to apply it. A variation of this is the ability to adopt a series of good postures and stances but not be able to move between them, that's actually pretty funny to watch though :D What I'm saying is that even if the drills are different the goals should be pretty much the same, if you've got an instructor who's not able to explain the purpose of the drill then you've no context and it's confusing, obviously you need another instructor :D Seriously though, if you have an instructor that isn't explaining it then push him/her to, if they won't then complain.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

caron-a — GMT

only thing i can add to such a technical discussion is that my left pole came in very useful when i was sliding down a mountain head first on my back unable to stop -) caron

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

AJ — GMT

Yes i meant instruction technique and the application of it ise. :lol: I suppose the only way to keep up with changing technique is to keep having refresher lessons and by god do i need one.Too many bad habits have crept in over the years. :lol: I still find pole planting difficult at speed as it tends to upset my flow, dont know if you understand the jist of what i`m trying to say. I suppose we will always be striving for the ultimate,illusive,In perfection.Thanks for the feedback. :wink: AJ Adele

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

ise — GMT

AJ wrote:

Yes i meant instruction technique and the application of it ise. :lol: I suppose the only way to keep up with changing technique is to keep having refresher lessons and by god do i need one.Too many bad habits have crept in over the years. :lol: I still find pole planting difficult at speed as it tends to upset my flow, dont know if you understand the jist of what i`m trying to say. I suppose we will always be striving for the ultimate,illusive,In perfection.Thanks for the feedback. :wink: AJ Adele

There's no one way of using the poles, I mentioned the 4 ways (above) that BASI think about it in the central theme and that varies as you move down the hill. I just skied from the top of the mountain on a black piste, steep and wide open on the top, and carving down there at speed I'm using a light touch on the pole and just railing on the edges, towards the bottom it gets much steeper and the snow's problematic so I'm fairly aggressively pole planting doing all of the things I mentioned above, i.e. supporting my balance as I turn with an aggressive edge check, helping me rotate rapidly without having to lean all over the hill and getting the torque to turn rapidly, it's a tighter line and I've got to navigate around the safety nets as well so the turn radius is way smaller. If I'd pole planted like that at the top when I was just railing carved turns down then it would have seriously upset my flow as well. A good run as well, somewhere under 6 minutes from top to bottom :D

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

bandit — GMT

ise wrote:

bandit wrote:

Hmmm, I'd like to think that you don't know me that well, but you are spot on with this observation :D Which is a little worrying, can I be read that easily? :shock:
not that much of an insight, I have skied with you :D I'd also think anyone that skis more than a couple of times a year, reads a ski forum matches that profile.

Yes, you've skied with me, but you're always in front, so unless you have eyes in the back of your head??? Also, since you're not teaching, and have not taught me, you won't know how I learn as a skier. Lots of folks now ski more than a couple of times a year, and read forums for ideas, so I'm not convinced on that. Anyway, I let you go ahead, so that if I see you make a hash of things, I know it's a tough run. Maybe that's what you are using as an indicator? :D BTW 6 minutes is pretty good IMV 8) how shiny was the netted "catch" area?

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

ise — GMT

bandit wrote:

Yes, you've skied with me, but you're always in front, so unless you have eyes in the back of your head??? Also, since you're not teaching, and have not taught me, you won't know how I learn as a skier. Lots of folks now ski more than a couple of times a year, and read forums for ideas, so I'm not convinced on that. Anyway, I let you go ahead, so that if I see you make a hash of things, I know it's a tough run. Maybe that's what you are using as an indicator? :D BTW 6 minutes is pretty good IMV 8) how shiny was the netted "catch" area?

I try to keep and eye on what's going on behind :D I agree though, most people now match that profile, skiing's come a long way from the package tour mentality of the 80's. The wider public has changed as well so people question more as well. It really wasn't any kind of good guess or insight at all :D 6mins.... a piste day, slalom skis with very sharp edges :D It was very icy at the bottom, but those Lasers can hold an edge on glass so it's hardly even noticeable.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

bandit — GMT

ise wrote:

I try to keep and eye on what's going on behind :D

To see what's on offer in the days' best yard sale :D

I agree though, most people now match that profile, skiing's come a long way from the package tour mentality of the 80's.

Many UK skiers still use Tour Op packages, I would suggest most. With that, comes the package ski school class, the package hire kit etc. I would suggest that most beginner and lower intermediate improvers, don't ask why particular exercises are done, and don't really care until sometime after they have stopped taking resort ski school lessons. Receiving different methods and styles of teaching is only part of the bigger picture when trying to explain why holidaymakers stop learning after they master the basics. I'm really not surprised that many skiers don't know how to use their poles.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

DaveW — GMT

carona wrote:

only thing i can add to such a technical discussion is that my left pole came in very useful when i was sliding down a mountain head first on my back unable to stop -) caron [Boy(girl?) are you right about that! I,ve checked out some of these posters' blogs etc such as Ise's...we're getting the very best of advice here on this topic. With trepidation I suggest the pole goes-in when the next turn requires to be started. Then the body transitions (CofG) across the skis such that the skis turn on one radius but the mass of the body continues (more or less) down the slope is straighter line? Yeah I know it's old shool but I've still got the old legs. Seriously, Corona, your emergency use of the pole in a runnaway slide will work in some situations only. Mountaineering technique by Greene is much more reliable. Worst case scenario on your back, heading down the slope: 1 Immediately swing legs hard into down-hill position 2 Flip over on to your torso-front 3 Spread legs and dig boot toes in hard 4 GENTLY, pushup with arms extended to raise body. 5 By now on frozen/steep slopes you are likely to be accelerating rapidly, Hold that until coming to a stop NB The reason for gentle arms extension is that on severe slopes(or hard ice) you can catapult yourself into space as the boot toes grip or hit ridges. If that happens, you're a gonner. Practice this on short slopes until it becomes instinctive. All of this follows first trying to retain Ski(s) as a brake and playing the stay-in the centre of the ski game. Chances are the skis release early anyway!

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

ise — GMT

bandit wrote:

Many UK skiers still use Tour Op packages, I would suggest most. With that, comes the package ski school class, the package hire kit etc. I would suggest that most beginner and lower intermediate improvers, don't ask why particular exercises are done, and don't really care until sometime after they have stopped taking resort ski school lessons. Receiving different methods and styles of teaching is only part of the bigger picture when trying to explain why holidaymakers stop learning after they master the basics. I'm really not surprised that many skiers don't know how to use their poles.

I'm not so sure, think back to the 80's and early 90's people used to embark on their trips not even knowing what the weather was like at the other end, the first you'd hear was some rubbish from a the tour company rep'. Nowadays, we've the internet and people are way better informed about every aspect of their trip and it makes them much more critical consumers, or at least some of them :D Maybe most people turning up this weekend at the airport and boarding their coaches are to my cynical eyes woefully naive but that proportion that are more informed is going up all the time, from around zero in the 80's and early 90's to something more significant nowadays. Obviously the internets not a perfect mechanism to inform people and it's incredibly difficult for the average person to see what's well-intentioned but ill-informed nonsense in stuff posted on sites but that's pretty much true of much of life anyway. The vast majority of think themselves much more informed consumers nowadys, it's largely untrue but again that proportion of genuinely informed consumers is going up, I think most instructors and ski schools (getting back to skiing) are really aware that heading down the hill and shouting "bend the knees" from time to time just won't cut it any more. The irony is that "bend the knees" is still pretty good advice for most of us :D The downside is that there's been this explosion in unintelligible nonsense speak, again like much of the rest of life I suppose, I read stuff that really I ought to understand and I've not the faintest idea what they're talking about and people build entire teaching methods around it. Your observation that this questioning of instructors and technique is something that grows with your experience must be true as well, that sounds like a natural progression though. Sadly most people abandon lessons just as soon as they can stem turn and never progress significantly, in part that's because ski schools and instructors are so woeful commercially, ski manufactures and retail outlets have always been way more successful at extracting money for new skis than ski schools have at selling tuition. People are far more willing to buy skis to make something easier than actually learn to do it properly sadly.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

caron-a — GMT

DaveW wrote:

only thing i can add to such a technical discussion is that my left pole came in very useful when i was sliding down a mountain head first on my back unable to stop -) caron [Boy(girl?) are you right about that! I,ve checked out some of these posters' blogs etc such as Ise's...we're getting the very best of advice here on this topic. With trepidation I suggest the pole goes-in when the next turn requires to be started. Then the body transitions (CofG) across the skis such that the skis turn on one radius but the mass of the body continues (more or less) down the slope is straighter line? Yeah I know it's old shool but I've still got the old legs. Seriously, Corona, your emergency use of the pole in a runnaway slide will work in some situations only. Mountaineering technique by Greene is much more reliable. Worst case scenario on your back, head-first and heading down the slope: 1 Immediately swing legs hard into down-hill position 2 Flip over on to your torso-front 3 Spread legs and dig boot toes in hard 4 GENTLY, pushup with arms extended to raise body. 5 By now on frozen/steep slopes you are likely to be accelerating rapidly, Hold that until coming to a stop NB The reason for gentle arms extension is that on severe slopes(or hard ice) you can catapult yourself into space as the boot toes grip or hit ridges. If that happens, you're a gonner. Practice this on short slopes until it becomes instinctive. All of this follows first trying to retain Ski(s) as a brake and playing the stay-in the centre of the ski game. Chances are the skis release early anyway!

(girl :D) appreciate the advice, i'll use it as my mantra. unfortunately my skis didn't come off and i damaged ligaments in both knees trying to stop myself with them, that's when the pole came in useful! on another note - admin, is it posssible to change my usename to caron please? as much as i love beer, i've been mistaken for a corona twice now! :lol:

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Admin — GMT

carona wrote:

admin, is it posssible to change my usename to caron please?

Unfortunately we already have a caron registered... I could change it to heineken if you'd prefer a more European flavour? Minor request folks; please try not to quote the entirety of any Post you reply to - it makes the forum look a little untidy... 8)

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

caron-a — GMT

Admin wrote:

carona wrote:

admin, is it posssible to change my usename to caron please?
Unfortunately we already have a caron registered... I could change it to heineken if you'd prefer a more European flavour?

vodka and tonic? actually, how about vin chaud?

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

AJ — GMT

Ise, Bandit i couldnt agree more with the tour ops and commercialism aspect. As for the pole planting a refresher lesson is on the list for my next trip. The urge to stab and jab with the poles is a habit i alone cannot break,The desire to ski with finesse is now my priority.Besides aggressive skiing is so knackering or am i just now showing my age. AJ Adele Cheers for the advice guys and gals its much appreciated.

Re:Pole position (excuse the pun)

Trencher — GMT

Don't let the avatar fool you. I am not convinced, but you do need them for the start in GS.