Latest posts for the topic "Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale"

Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:34:04 GMT

So very pleased to be "fitted" for my very 1st pair of ski boots in March 2006.I spent a few hours trying on different pairs of boots in a shop in the UK.
After 3 days skiing I experinced discomfort on the balls of my right foot.

I returned to the shop and they decided that the problem may be solved by ironing out part of the footbed on the painful foot.
Off I went again and after 6 more days skiing the boots still never felt right. By this stage I was experiencing heel lift. Back I went to the shop once again still unhappy with the "fitting" service I had paid for. They tried to the best of their ability to solve the problem by selling and fitting me heel inserts and neoprene liner socks to reduce volume.

Off I went skiing, confident that my glitches had been re-solved.
By the end of the 1st day skiing between Christmas & New Year 2007 (My 9th day in theses boots) my left foot had gone a bit numb.
By the end of the 2nd day,of the much anticipated holiday, the pain on the ball of my rightfoot had returned and become unbearable. This was new year's eve and I determined not to let this ruin my long planned and expensive holiday.
The only thing to do was to seek local help in the resort.

I was recommended a guy in Chamonix. I went to the shop and I explained my problems. He then did something which I hadn't experinced in my initial "fitting".
First of all he took my boots and removed the liner then he asked me to put my sock free foot into the shell and put my foot forward so as my big toe was just touching the front. Then he shone his torch down the heel of the boot to see the gap.
"Do you have any brothers and sisters?" he asked.
"Yes," I replied. " I have three sisters"
"Well you could fit them all down the back of there!"
So you see, my problems stemmed from have the wrong sized and too high a volume boot.
"What on earth could I do about it right now" bearing in mind that it's new years eve and the UK ski shop was(a) along way away and (b) closed for the night.
So I'm left with 2 options either rent a pair for the rest of the hol or buy a new pair as my boots were now unsk-iable.

I thought about this long enough to realize that I'm probably not going to find many places in the world where I would be as confident about having my feet FITTED for a pair of boots as this particular guy.
The reason being, that he just happened to have fiited boots for 43 world cup firsts, 5 world Championship golds, and 4 Olympic Gold medalists including Anton Denariaz and Anja Paerson. With that kind of record, I can understand the different levels of correct ski boot fitting.
I seized the opportunity and bought a brand new pair.

The next day, which was a demanding back country day which we'd booked in advance, involve much hiking and well as demanding skiing on heavily wind blown snow. The pain in my feet had gone, even after such demanding conditions for day 1 of new boots, it's just a shame that my skiing was not as good.
I have since learned that my skiing will take a little while to adjust how to ski correctly in boots that actually fit !

So here's the big question do I demand and should I expect a full refund from the shop I bought the original boots from, or should I be happy to accept a credit note for 50% of the value of their value (as has been offered)
I personally feel that because under the 1979 sale of goods act that I have been sold goods that are "Not fit for purpose" i.e not able to ski in them and cosequently want a full refund, but have been told that when I left the shop I was happy with them.

What should I do?

I VALUE ALL OPINIONS PLEASE

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Mon, 21 Jan 2008 05:33:47 GMT

I would go after them for a full refund. You were a good customer, and patient with them. They made/had a faulty product. You went through all that, yeah totally get your money back

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:08:11 GMT

That's an interesting question and would be hard for people outside the UK to understand as I doubt any other country gives such protection to the consumer.

In my lay thoughts, your case hinges on two points. The first is that any knowledgeable sales person would know ski boots "pack in" and end up a half to a full size larger after some use. The empty shell test you describe above gives a good indication of how much packing in may take place. The second point is whether you were actually fitted with ski boots or just made a selection with little help, not asking for advice.

If you have been offered a half refund, then you are better off than most people who make this mistake with their first pair of boots (and most people do). A lot of boots end up on ebay after just one week of use.

Trencher

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Wed, 6 Feb 2008 14:15:09 GMT

OK so the issue with my original purchaser reads as thus:-

1. They would not give me a full refund, but only half the value of the boots I purchased in the form of a credit note.

2. I considered taking them to the small claims court which can be a long winded process, but eventually took the credit and exchanged it for various accessories:-gloves hats etc.

3. I paid the price for NOT going to a shop with COMPETENT PROFESSIONAL BOOT FITTERS.

4. The moral of the story is that in my opinion, due to my own bad experience,

If you want to buy a pair of professionally fitted ski boots, then I recommend that you

DO NOT BUY SKI BOOTS

from FINCHES SNOW AND SPORTS IN FOREST HILL, SOUTH LONDON UK
because of exactly the reasons I have stated above.i.e. they cannot "FIT" boots.

5. I will gladly respond to anyone who has anything else to add to this, because as a member of J2SKI I feel a responsibility to the rest of this community to share as much info as possible; good or, unfortunately in this case, not so good when it comes to buying the most important piece of hardware we rely on.

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:59:40 GMT

Knowing how poorly the consumer is treated in the UK, I am quote surprised they even offered you 50%. However, you ought to be entitled to that in the form of a refund, not a credit note, as they are doing is making you spend more money with them, and the whole point is you do not want to and dont trust them any more.

If they have offered 50%, I would say take it, but try to get them to refund it to you, and then you might even be able to sell the boots on ebay.

Best of luck.

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Fri, 8 Feb 2008 21:26:04 GMT

Hi Meercat

Out of interest what is the name of the man and his shop in Chamonix who splendidly set you up properly with some new boots? I will be after some new boots next season, I was thinking I could always coincide a visit to Chamonix and buy and have them fitted there if the chap does a good job.

Glad you got some good boots sorted eventually.

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:17:24 GMT

The fella to see is Jules Mills, and he runs an independent bootfitting service within Sanglard Sport in Chamonix.

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Sat, 9 Feb 2008 20:06:00 GMT

I think the lesson to be learnt here is to buy your ski equipment abroad where you can try before you buy, I have always found the customer service Ist class.
I brought a new pair of boots in Le Grand bornand last month and got a great price and the care and attention to detail lasted all week.

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Sat, 9 Feb 2008 20:26:46 GMT

My boots were fitted in ellis brigham at milton keynes by a guy who you could tell really knew his stuff. they're absolutely spot on. my husband was fitted in the same shop a few weeks later by a different guy and i got the impression he wasn't quite as knowledgable. very unfortunate for my husband because he suffered all week and had to have an alteration made by skiset in resort. ironically it was the same alteration made for me in the shop during my hour long fitting.
i'd say don't buy if you don't feel the salesperson is confident.
i'd also say, meercat, put it behind you and enjoy your news boots, gloves, hat, etc

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Sun, 10 Feb 2008 07:05:30 GMT

Thank-you everyone for taking the the time to respond.

As skiiers, it is very important to share as much info as we can regarding the most important aspect of our beloved passion.

With regards to your comment Corona:-

"i'd also say, meercat, put it behind you and enjoy your news boots, gloves, hat, etc"

I have done just that and have now exchanged half the value of my boots for the above. The whole bad experience is now behind me, and I have moved on, butv it is my duty to share my non-partizan experience.

I cannot re-iterate the fact how crucial it is to make sure sure that you seek out a proper boot fitter, and to tell every-one you know, who does not want to waste time and money on incorrectly "fitted" boots

DO NOT BUY SKI BOOTS FROM

FINCHES
25-29 PERRY VALE
FOREST HILL
LONDON
SE23 2NE

I made this mistake and have paid the the price.

This is my opinion through my personal experience.

I am not being malicious in any way, but the fact is they do not know how to fit boots.

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:51:39 GMT

Of course, no one at Snow+Rock etc. are going to say it, but it makes no sense to buy ski equipment in the UK. Like many, I did this and regretted it - I don't believe that there's a price difference if you go to the right place locally (i.e. not the shop that gives a backhander to the ski rep) and surely it makes more sense to be able to take things back for adjustment to a local place from whom you've bought it? Many rental shops give a discount if you opt to buy after rental and will allow you to try out a variety of skis before deciding. Of course, if you walk into a local shop on a half-term Saturday, you may not get very good service, but choose the right time and I think that you can do better than anywhere is the UK, solely on the basis that you can and will walk back in the next day if you're not satisfied.

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:02:18 GMT

Of course, if you buy abroad you are not covered by the Sale of Goods Act, there is a language problem, and it's a nuisance if you need adjustment to the boot the following winter because it ties you to going to the same resort.

Spent ages getting my OH's boots sorted last winter, he was measured for fitting by Colin Martin at http://solutions4feet.com/ and advised to buy 1 of only 2 models of boot. He has small feet, and getting the correct mondopoint was proving difficult.

We headed out to Engelberg before Christmas, and scoured the ski shops. The best (and most hilarious) performance was by a large ski shop trying to fit him into a Women's model Salomon in a 26. What he actually measured up to was a 24.5 in an Atomic B100 or the Head Edge 10.8 in 25.0

It's so easy for resort shops to sell bigger sizes, after all, you put em on and they feel comfy...for a little while anyway. By the time you find out they are way too big, it's too late and you just end up buying even more new boots.
None of the stores sold mens boots in smaller sizes, we walked away and found both the boots in stock at Filarinskis in Havant.
Although the store was not involved in fitting the boot, to their credit, they were unwilling to sell the Atomic to him in a 25.0 as the shell sizing meant that he really should have been in a 24.5 IIRC. He said it was very comfy though!
Then again only 2 weeks ago, we had our 1st outing on touring skis. OH was persauaded to try touring boots, and was duly measured by the shop. Oooh he says they are sooo comfy. He lasted about 1 hour before they turned into wellies, and he had sores on his feet the next day. On looking at the boots we noticed that they were women's!!! No way does he have women's foot shape!!! Still, he shop made money on the hire so that must be okay
He was able to appreciate Colin's skill as a bootfitter once back in his Head's

I simply can't agree that the "convenience" of being able to call into a resort ski shop is an effective counter to the potential pain and suffering of badly fitted boots. Of course, if things do go pear shaped with your boot purchase, being fluent in the local language must be a great help when it comes to making your case.

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:44:23 GMT

Unless of course you buy the perfect fitting boots at a bargain price in resort

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:02:18 GMT

Tony_H wrote:Unless of course you buy the perfect fitting boots at a bargain price in resort

Then there is the approach that I would advocate. Do some research and buy cheap (but good condition boots) on ebay. Figure out what works for you on a local dry slope. Even if you get the perfect fit, the boots may not work in terms of performance. There's a lot more than flex index to how a boot works. Then you know what you want in terms of performance and have some experience as to what is a good fit. If you still feel the need to spend some big money on the perfect boots, at least you'll have a clue.

Trencher

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:18:29 GMT

Tony_H wrote:Unless of course you buy the perfect fitting boots at a bargain price in resort

Well done How many weeks have you skied in them so far?

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:30:10 GMT

I'm sensing a can of worms has been opened
i've got 18 months to go back to ellis brigham as many times as i like...
Caron

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:30:28 GMT

Trencher wrote:

Tony_H wrote:Unless of course you buy the perfect fitting boots at a bargain price in resort

Then there is the approach that I would advocate. Do some research and buy cheap (but good condition boots) on ebay. Figure out what works for you on a local dry slope. Even if you get the perfect fit, the boots may not work in terms of performance. There's a lot more than flex index to how a boot works. Then you know what you want in terms of performance and have some experience as to what is a good fit. If you still feel the need to spend some big money on the perfect boots, at least you'll have a clue.
Trencher

It works for you, and that's great but I don't think it would work for me as I have no idea about how to accommodate the knobbly, sticky out bits on my feet, and what to do about the plain fact that there is no weight on one heel when I have a skiboot on, as I'm missing some squashy bits from one foot. Then there's the issue of footbeds. Made to measure or step in..or nothing at all???

I did try on some touring boots the other week at the start of our little jaunt, and I was measured, just like OH. The fitter popped me into a pair and we fastened them up. They were so big on the foot and ankle that I could twist my ankle sideways enough to turn my foot on it's side in the boot I skinned in my DH boots (Heads).
It's all learning!

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:48:00 GMT

Trencher wrote:

Tony_H wrote:Unless of course you buy the perfect fitting boots at a bargain price in resort

Then there is the approach that I would advocate. Do some research and buy cheap (but good condition boots) on ebay. Figure out what works for you on a local dry slope. Even if you get the perfect fit, the boots may not work in terms of performance. There's a lot more than flex index to how a boot works. Then you know what you want in terms of performance and have some experience as to what is a good fit. If you still feel the need to spend some big money on the perfect boots, at least you'll have a clue.

Trencher

Ok, that's assumming you don't have deviant feet

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:49:32 GMT

Does the same apply to modifications like foam injection to get a better fit or am i wasteing my money ?I would love a new pair of boots but now i am stumped as to what to do.

AJ Adele

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:59:27 GMT

My last pair of boots lasted 12 years, I must be very lucky with my feet as I have never had one problem in that time, my new pair I have now skied for 7 days no problems yet.
I have skied with friends who play around with there boots all day complaining
of sore feet and ankles. I tend to set my boots in the morning and never change the setting even at lunch !! and one other thing I tend to blame myself and not my equipment for any short comings that may occur during the day.

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:16:58 GMT

AJ wrote:Does the same apply to modifications like foam injection to get a better fit or am i wasteing my money ?I would love a new pair of boots but now i am stumped as to what to do.
AJ Adele

From the stuff I have heard and read about foam injection, it's great if you are going to be in your boots most days of the week each season. It's a rather close fit, so performance boots tend to foam well, and there is a running in period to be undertaken which could be uncomfortable.
It's possible to get a great fitting boot without foaming. You need a good bootfitter and the right fitting boot.
If you are considering foamed liners, also consider a Zipfit inner.
Here's a linky which explains what they are:
http://solutions4feet.com/catalogue_products.php?catID=1064
If you want new boots, IMV, the 1st step for you is to get yourself measured and see what's available for your foot shape

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:14:37 GMT

Although I'm sure that many people do get a good service in the UK, my argument is that I can't see the logic of buying your boots in, say London, when you can only really test them out for the first time, under real conditions, some weeks later in another country. I don't agree with the implication that all resort shops are bad at providing a boot service. It's when you ski in them that you're likely to find problems, and then you're miles away from the UK. So you're forced to go into a local shop anyway, to get them sorted.

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:52:22 GMT

I am curious about one thing with regard to your Chamonix boot fitting. How much space between the heel and back of the boot did the new pair have? A pencil width for example? I wonder if there is a rule of thumb for each type of boot and liner. I'm strapping on the boards after a 15 year hiatus and am getting reacquainted with the new hardware, not to mention the new techniques required by the new skis. I'm glad you resolved your issues and could ski with confidence at last. From my own experience, there is nothing worse than footwear that doesn't fit.

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:16:07 GMT

disko wrote:I am curious about one thing with regard to your Chamonix boot fitting. How much space between the heel and back of the boot did the new pair have? A pencil width for example? I wonder if there is a rule of thumb for each type of boot and liner. I'm strapping on the boards after a 15 year hiatus and am getting reacquainted with the new hardware, not to mention the new techniques required by the new skis. I'm glad you resolved your issues and could ski with confidence at last. From my own experience, there is nothing worse than footwear that doesn't fit.

The shell test is also known as the finger test. With your toes against the toe of the empty shell, there should be between one and two stacked finger space behind your heel (like when you cross your fingers). So about 15mm to 35 mm.
The next part is to have knowledge of the liner. is it thin or thick. Also to know that shells come in whole sizes only, 24, 25, 26 etc. Liner thickness makes up the half sizes. A 26.0 liner may pack in a little more than a 26.5, simply because there is more room for the foam to pack in. For instance, I find that although a 26.0 may be a tighter fit initially, it may end up fitting like a 26.5. My feet are actually 27.5, but I always use 26.0 shells. Yer, it's weird, but the way it is.

Trencher

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:47:35 GMT

Trencher wrote:

My feet are actually 27.5, but I always use 26.0 shells. Yer, it's weird, but the way it is.

Trencher

And you have the nerve to acuse me of having deviant feet

Well okay I do

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:14:23 GMT

How much does storage affect boots? I always try to remove and dry-out my inner boot after a few days: it's amazing how damp they are even after a night in a heated boot-room. And I've been told to always lightly lock down the buckles overnight and definitely if they're being stored for a long period. We've been out in Switzerland for a couple of weeks with various people visiting and everyone has had problems with their boots when they first skied on them - but in each case they didn't seem to be taking much care about storage and it was noticeable that the boots weren't 'buckled-up' when they took them out the bag.

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:38:09 GMT

bandit wrote:

Trencher wrote:

My feet are actually 27.5, but I always use 26.0 shells. Yer, it's weird, but the way it is.

Trencher

And you have the nerve to acuse me of having deviant feet

Well okay I do

You just need a deviant mentality to suffer the initial discomfort in order to get a good fit latter.

On most of my boots , the two lower buckles are only just tight enough to stay in place and not flip open when skiing.

It is important to bear in mind that good footbeds and heel lifts etc will shorten up the length of the foot in the boot.

Trencher

Re:Massive boot problems-a cautionary tale

Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:02:38 GMT

Trencher,

Thanks for the shell and liner tips. My feet are not only deviant, they're downright incorrigible.