Latest posts for the topic "Differences between parallel and carve turns?"

Differences between parallel and carve turns?

Jake — GMT

Could someone please explain what a parallel turn is and what a carve turn is. Secondly could someone explain how to go about producing these turns in steps. Finally could someone please highlight the fundamental differences between the two. I've been skiing once before and I thought it was great fun. I went to place called St. Michael in Austria for a week. By the end I could parallel turn and tackle the red runs pretty easily. I'm going again to the same place this Febuary and I want to have a preconcieved idea of what carving is and how to go about it and also to check that i'm doing the right things when parallel turning. Many thanks Jake

Terms and techniques

pavelski — GMT

Jake has asked a very important question. To really answer correctly we need some background information and a little history. Please forgive me if I seem to wander. Before 1980"s the "desired" skiing style was having legs very tight together so that the two skis were in "parallel" at all times. The "lower" level skiers would open up into a pie shaped arrangements during the turn. This was called "stem christie". The experts would keep legs together showing the lesser ones that they are the "alpha" males ( and some females). Very much like dogs that keep their tails high to show social strata! The skier who is known world wide as the model of this "parallel" technique is called Stein Erickson. Watch him just 10 seconds skiing and you will understand what parallel skiing is all about. Elegant, flowing with legs at all times "glued" together. Many tears ago for skiers wishing to be level 3 ski instructors they had to ski down terrain with varied inclinations with a red handkerchief stuck between their knees. Open just once, you failed the examination since the red handkerchief would fall to snow!. That is parallel skiing at its best. Few skiers, except some "old instructors" ski this way now! Why? Equipment has evolved resulting in a more dynamic skiing style. Boots have a softer flex, skis are more "shaped" for effective ski performance. Due to the major changes in equipment skiing has really become easier. Really! But changes , any changes for some is difficult ,,,,,,initially! Carving means that you use the ski effectively. The skier carves the ski run very much like you using a knife, from one edge (of one ski) to the other edge ( of the other ski). In short, in a carving ski technique you transfer all pressure from one edge, right away to the other edge. There is no flat stage where you stay flat on the ski bases. It is a "on the edge" skiing style which is very effective , very flowing, very sharp with no lateral tail movement! You will also note that skis are apart and NOT parallel while skiing. yes the elegance is gone!!!!! Allow me an analogy. Next time you watch, "Scent of a women" look carefully at the Tango scene.There is a ritualized movement which is sensuous, with elegant movements.The posturing is most important not more effective movement! That is parallel skiing. The look is most important ! Take another dancing scene but very modern. The "look" becomes secondary to the "difficulty" of the movement. In short "parallel skiing" is gone! Carving skiing is IN!!! This is not just a "vogue" or passing fad! New skis require you to ski this way. It is easier. It is more fun, once you accept the change and take the time to learn it. Look at it this way, some years ago the skiing world was "rejecting" steel edges as "cheaters"! Poles were rejected since one pole was enough. Plastic boots were "cheap' and of course wool was much better than polar flleece! Time to change. The term and concept parallel skiing should be allowed to rest. I must confess however that when I do ski with Stein Erickson at Deer Valley I digress to my old sinful ways and ski like him! Elegance still has its value, not efficient this glued legs technique called "parallele" but elegant! I hope this has help you Jake!

Re:Differences between parallel and carve turns?

Jake — GMT

Brilliant, thanks for taking the time to post :mrgreen: .

Re:Differences between parallel and carve turns?

Trencher — GMT

I don't think elegance need be completely lost. The problem is that at the moment, the charge into the new rechnique has been led by the racers. Whenever I see instructors taking a carving clinic, it is normally a racer type doing the teaching. The current racing model of the skis wide apart is not neccersary for free skiing. In a good carved turn, the legs are parallel and may be touching, though the skis are further apart. I don't like the extreme carving style that brings the inside ski up under the body. To me this looks no better than an A frame turn, in that it's almost impossible to fall. It is possible to carve quite extremely without doing that. I think a style of carving will develope, that will be graceful. One the greatest aspects of the carving revolution is the condition of the runs. Until recently, if the snow was soft at our local hill, you had an hour or two at most befor the slope was mini moguled out and impossible to carve on. That only happens on holiday weekends now, when the old schoolers come out. Trencher

Differences between parallel and carve turns?

ben76 — GMT

Jake wrote:

Could someone please explain what a parallel turn is and what a carve turn is. Many thanks Jake

A concise answer would be that for parrallel turns, turning is initiated by the skier pivotting their legs at the hip joint to create steering of the skis. Carving is where the skis are 'cut' into the snow by the skier angulating and the skis following the path of the skis sidecut. As a result parralel skiing enables faster shorter radius turns suitable for steep terrain where speed control is important, carving is great fun on well groomed blue pistes where long sweeping turns at high speed are possible. As an addition to the first reply above, modern parrallel technique is that the skier should adopt a wider stance (i.e. skis not close together) since this gives a more stable base and facilitates anugulation at the knee joints as well as the hips giving much better edge control. It should be noted that even though the skis aren't together they are still parrallel.

Differences between parallel and carve turns?

ben76 — GMT

Jake wrote:

Could someone please explain what a parallel turn is and what a carve turn is. Many thanks Jake

Re:Differences between parallel and carve turns?

powderhound — GMT

There is some good illustrative video in the Ski Technique section - see Skiing Carved Turns. Powderhound

Differences between parallel and carve turns?

ski53 — GMT

Another thing to note is that a Pure carved turn can not be any shorter than the turn radius designed into the ski. A pure carve is achieved when the ski is set on its edge, and pressure at the center of the ski causes it to decamber,or bend such that the tip and tail of the ski are "higher" than the middle. This creates a track in the snow that the ski will follow, and very little snow will spray. Racers do this all the time; you can tell when they're losing speed because more snow flies around as the ski skids sideways. You will note that a modern slalom ski has a radically short turn radius, and a correspondingly high sidecut. Fat powder skis have much less sidecut, as the narrow waist would sink, and the much wider tips would dive into the soft snow. Really fun powder skis have reverse sidecut and reverse camber, but that's another topic entirely! Thus, I would have to beg to differ slightly with pavelski. It is not possible to "carve" 98mm waist fat skis in a slalom turn the same way as if one were using slalom skis. I would not want to try to carve a turn through some trees! Skidding, in a controlled manner, is a very important skill. You have to be able to steer the ski, while it's edged. But, in so doing, you are losing the "pure carve". Last, carving is a form of parallel skiing. Parallel simply means both skis are pointed the same direction. That old hokey knees-together crap that we did up to the mid 80s ... is also parallel. It's just not appropriate to today's equipment, and physically impossible with some of today's skis.

Differences between parallel and carve turns?

Trencher — GMT

ski53 wrote:

Another thing to note is that a Pure carved turn can not be any shorter than the turn radius designed into the ski.is.

I would put it this way. The radius of a carved turn is the product of the skis sidecut radius and the degree to which the ski is inclinated. The turn shape may also be altered by pressure applied to the ski. Welcome to the forum ski53. Trencher

Re:Differences between parallel and carve turns?

82ross — GMT

This vid shows an example of an older style of skiing ie not carving. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4WJS9v8Amb4

Re:Differences between parallel and carve turns?

ben76 — GMT

82ross wrote:

This vid shows an example of an older style of skiing ie not carving. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4WJS9v8Amb4

I'd like to point out that there is a fair bit wrong with the technique demonstrated in this clip so should not be used as a 'how to ski parralel' demo. Main problem is that this guy is using his upper body to chuck himself from side to side, and his legs are not pivotting separately from his hips. I'd suggest that the reason he's having to do this is because he's remaining on his edges for too long when he needs to be flattening them out at end of each turn. This is fairly clearly demonstrated when you can see his uphill (or inside) ski being independently picked up to initiate the subsequent turn, the first turn he makes after passing the camera gives the most obvious demo of this fault. Whilst carving is a new(ish)style of skiing facilitated by shaped skis, parrallel skiing is certainly not an outdated style (although this business of skiing with narrow stance is and looks very mincey).

Comments from Ben

pavelski — GMT

Excellent observations and comments! Notice also how he "opens up" near end of turn! That is one of my many faults while I ski! I have to think to hold that edge to the very end of turn! Just a comment about having fun while skiing! Some skiers are so concerned about technique that they never enjoy just skiing! Have fun! I always take one hour per day to focus on one aspect of my "weak points"! The rest of time,,,I just have fun! Yes it is great to have effective technique, but you ski to have fun! Let yourselves go! It reminds me about listening to some biometric physiologist who were watching people walk! No one walked "correctly" according to them!

Re:Differences between parallel and carve turns?

82ross — GMT

ben76 wrote:

82ross wrote:

This vid shows an example of an older style of skiing ie not carving. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4WJS9v8Amb4
I'd like to point out that there is a fair bit wrong with the technique demonstrated in this clip so should not be used as a 'how to ski parralel' demo. Main problem is that this guy is using his upper body to chuck himself from side to side, and his legs are not pivotting separately from his hips. I'd suggest that the reason he's having to do this is because he's remaining on his edges for too long when he needs to be flattening them out at end of each turn. This is fairly clearly demonstrated when you can see his uphill (or inside) ski being independently picked up to initiate the subsequent turn, the first turn he makes after passing the camera gives the most obvious demo of this fault. Whilst carving is a new(ish)style of skiing facilitated by shaped skis, parrallel skiing is certainly not an outdated style (although this business of skiing with narrow stance is and looks very mincey).

Thanks for pointing out the faults in that video, more information for me to learn from. Anyone have any more videos with better examples of parallel skiing?

Comments from Ben

RossF — GMT

pavelski wrote:

I always take one hour per day to focus on one aspect of my "weak points"! The

1 hour seems too much to me! Pavel, that is commitment, an hour is a large chunnk of a skiing day not to be wasted;D

Re:Differences between parallel and carve turns?

82ross — GMT

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2T22D-SmD7Q Is the beginning of this video a fair example of parallel turning?

Re:Differences between parallel and carve turns?

ellistine — GMT

82ross wrote:

Is the beginning of this video a fair example of parallel turning?

They're bound to be good - they've got matching jackets! Seriously, from the little I know it looks very good. I hate it when people make it look so easy!

Re:Differences between parallel and carve turns?

ben76 — GMT

82ross wrote:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2T22D-SmD7Q Is the beginning of this video a fair example of parallel turning?

What they're doing at the very beginning of that vid are what are know as 'braquage' turns. This is an exercise where you turn but never really engage the edges at the end of the turn. This is a good exercise to get the idea of pivotting/turning your skis when they are flat on the snow. The basic parrallel starts about 1min 15s into the clip, and is a good example. Notice how they gradually flex downwards at the end of the turn to increase angulation (hip and knee) and engage the edges before smoothly coming off the edges at the start of the next turn.

Re:Differences between parallel and carve turns?

82ross — GMT

Thanks. Been looking at loads of (online) videos an most of them end up with poor comments about old or just plain poor demonstrations. Are the warren smith dvds agreed to be a really good source of uptodate instructional material? Are there any others I should know about? :) I can get myself down the blacks but with all the grace of a brussel sprout and using 10 times more energy than I should. Good videos can point out some of the things i was never taught or have never heard about before. What else am I gonna do before i get my skis back on after xmas eh!

Re:Differences between parallel and carve turns?

Petar — GMT

Great read by Pavelski again! +5

Re:Differences between parallel and carve turns?

Donza — GMT

the diffirence is that the parralel skier is more agressive and trying to ski a very short radius, the carving skier is just trying to go fast and horizontal as he can, trying to hit the piste with his ass if you know what i mean :D i like the agressive style, mogul skiing check this http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw1xEOWbFIY and this http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=K_A2Ce1VDMY&feature=related and this http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=gPfAlSj_rDY and this and this but then whit the old skis http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=MApwEehMKP4 ow and here is a site with some videos, i think its really helpful for the advanced skier http://www.skinastc.com/m4_s1.html

Re:Differences between parallel and carve turns?

Colin L — GMT

I have just found this forum or would have posted sooner on this thread. Most of what I would say to Jake in answer to his original question has been said here and there so in some ways I'm picking out comments and summarising. Carved turns are parallel turns. There are 3 elements in turning on skis: rotation, pressure and edges. That is, you can rotate your feet and steer your skis; you can change the pressure on your skis by stretching and flexing your legs; and you can tilt your skis over so that their edges cut into the snow. While you can turn by using each one of these elements uniquely, most people will turn using all three to varying degrees - except when specifically carving or doing these bracquage turns mentioned above. The first part of the video Ross84 asks about shows skiers who are turning almost exclusively by foot rotation - the skis are fairly flat; there is not much vertical movement; and there is no tilting on to their edges. The later turns show a bit more vertical movement (ie stretching of the upper leg in initiating the turn, and flexing later in the turn to resist the pressure of the centrifugal force). There is still foot rotation and now some tilting of the skis. In both the early turns and the later ones the skis skid round quite a bit (not a fault by the way). A carved turn is essentially achieved by tilting the skis so that you are turning entirely on the edges so that there is no skidding. This means you don't use any foot rotation. If you get it right you can look back and see two parallel cleanly cut tracks in the snow. You use vertical movement (pressure) which facilitates edge change and crossing the hips over the skis. I think, Jake, you should see carved turns not as something differentfrom other parallel turns but as a progression from your more skidded turns where foot rotation is evident to a greater or lesser extent. You will need to understand a bit more about the inclination (ie leaning into the inside of the turn) you need in order to tilt your skis effectively and the way in which you angle your upper body out in order to counterbalance the inclination of your lower body. (If you don't counterbalance with your upper body you can end up banking rather than inclining - ie your weight goes on to the upper ski and your feet are liable to head off straight downhill depositing you inelegantly on your side.) There is a lot of work ahead to achieve good carved turns but the outcome is very satisfying and the learning is fun. I doubt if you will do it just by reading descriptions like this. There are various drills an instructor can give you to get the feel of it. Get yourself a lesson! Or two. Good luck!

Re:Differences between parallel and carve turns?

Dave Mac — GMT

Pavelski gave a good short history of the development of parallel skiing. The stem christie was aimed at a middle step between snowplough and parallel. The problem was that a lot of skiers remained locked in the stem process, because they perceived an issue of retaining balance by progressing to parallel. We used, with reasonable success, to cut out the christie phase, through a process of cross-hill traverse stops, progressing to an "Open knee swing". That is using a change of terrain to assist in the initiation of the turn, skis parallel, shoulder width apart. It works well, but is difficult for beginners to grasp. This was in effect a carved turn, but it took a lot of ground, and was only any use on slight slopes. Shorter skis and changed camber has made this process easier to achieve. Enlightment only really occured when the pupil grasped the technique of heel slip, which, then allied with the parallel turn gave the combination of ability, control and confidence. Incidentally, there was a period in the early 70's when we were mandated to teach downward unweighting, called "Avaloment" in the France and "Grundschwung" in the Austrian ski school. High backed boots quickly appeared followed by rickety knees! It developed into an extreme form, termed "Jetting", sitting down on a snow bump, twisting the knees, and jetting the skis away! I remember bolting 8 inch vertical extensions to the back of my boots! Having said all that, there are occasions when downward unweighting is rewarded. I agree with ski53 and ben76 that carving is a parallel action. Also, there is nothing wrong with "knees together", it is a style variation along with the rest. And if more girls skied with their legs together...... Dave Mac