Latest posts for the topic "late season ski passes"

late season ski passes

Sun, 22 Apr 2012 12:53:40 GMT

went skiing second week in Easter, a off peak time. I was so disappointed to find that the off season ski pass was only Euro20 cheaper then then peak season pass, despite 45% of the runs being closed.

The resort is now shut despite good snow at high altitude, reason lack of customers. Resorts could easily extend their opening periods if they discounted the off season prices sufficiently. I was# looking at possibly going for four days next weekend but the resorts I looked at and are open the passes are still costly

Re:late season ski passes

Sun, 22 Apr 2012 16:05:02 GMT

Well, it's still a very good deal. Lot of people never even get to ski the lower slopes when they open while still paying full price. Some good snow at the end of season this year too. You are very lucky. last year at the same time people had to take skis off and walk down to get to lifts. I don't think lack of customers is the only reason and I don't think that bigger discounts will attract much bigger crowds. It's April after all and people have alreaddy dusted off their mountain bikes.

Re:late season ski passes

Sun, 22 Apr 2012 19:05:11 GMT

verbier_ski_bum wrote:Well, it's still a very good deal. Lot of people never even get to ski the lower slopes when they open while still paying full price.

Not the point, if 45% runs are shut then they should charge at least 45% less

Re:late season ski passes

Sun, 22 Apr 2012 23:09:04 GMT

FallingDown wrote:

verbier_ski_bum wrote:Well, it's still a very good deal. Lot of people never even get to ski the lower slopes when they open while still paying full price.

Not the point, if 45% runs are shut then they should charge at least 45% less

All businesses operate with fixed and variable costs. So when activity is reduced, the variable element declines,but rarely in direct proportion, for practical reasons, there is usually a time/activity/cost lag. So if 45% of lifts are closed, the VCs may still be 55/60% of full costs.

However, the fixed costs remain the same. The Alpingers, (mountain first-aiders) still have to be in position. Although the piste machines may be pisting less, they have to get from base to mountain and return. The Bergbahn offices have to be manned, and managers have to remain in post. Their insurance costs remain the same.

The machines still have to clear the whole of the car park area.

Some operating costs actually increase. The capital depreciation costs on the mountain lift equipment is often calculated per operational hour. Depreciation will be a significant element of cost, and if the capacity is cut by 45%, it will effectively double on the lifts remaining open.

Unlike North America, where company often owns an area, European lift companies tend to lease farm high alpine ground. All the rich farmers have north facing land! This has to be paid, lifts open or closed. Again there is a unit increase in cost.

So when lifts operate at 45% capacity, FCs may remain at 95% of full costs.

Re:late season ski passes

Mon, 23 Apr 2012 09:29:35 GMT

Dave is 100% spot on. There is more to costs that pass prices cover than operating lifts. Just as lift prices isn't the main factor effecting the crowds at the end of season. And resorts might not want to operate longer than initially planned closing dates. I wondered myself why resorts might close earlier (and often do) but rarely extend their season, unlike it happens in NA, but then I realised that wage rate is generally higher in Europe so the costs of staying open later are not likely to be recuperated. And cows want their pastures back too.

Re:late season ski passes

Mon, 23 Apr 2012 10:19:42 GMT

Some of it is about the costs of operating, some is about maintaining a profit margin and also about staffing. Many of the staff will have completed their contracts and left for their summer jobs and thus aren't available to work.

There price charged and the cost of operating may well be puzzling.
Some operators may opt to keep prices high to squeeze as much out of the visitors as possible others may reduce their prices to entice more visitors.

People will vote with their feet if they think they've been ripped off. Why have Fench ski resorts been quieter and the Austrian ones busier?

Re:late season ski passes

Mon, 23 Apr 2012 12:18:17 GMT

I think Austria traditionally has been cheaper for skiing than France or Switzerland, though I heard that prices in St. Anton were quite on par. And weak pound means that British skiers lost additional income they were getting from exchange rate so they are looking to compensate it by going to cheaper destinations. As for prices themselves, they haven't changed much in recent years (prices in mountain restaurants in Verbier are exactly the same as they were 8 years ago, the same is true for ski passes or ski school prices), but perception of what is affordable has changed for many people. I know it sounds selfish, but I hope it will stay like this for couple more years, season rent for me certainly went down a bit, and prices in ski shops have been adjusted to reflect strong franc, steeper discounts at sale times AND fewer people on slopes. This season the only time when there were considerable lift lines was during Christmas period. But resorts have to operate at a profit, and pay their staff too (wages never go down) so there is a limit to how much discount a shop/hotel will give.

Re:late season ski passes

Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:06:55 GMT

Dave Mac wrote:

FallingDown wrote:

verbier_ski_bum wrote:Well, it's still a very good deal. Lot of people never even get to ski the lower slopes when they open while still paying full price.

Not the point, if 45% runs are shut then they should charge at least 45% less

All businesses operate with fixed and variable costs. So when activity is reduced, the variable element declines,but rarely in direct proportion, for practical reasons, there is usually a time/activity/cost lag. So if 45% of lifts are closed, the VCs may still be 55/60% of full costs.

This is very true, but let me introduce another business concept, supply and demand.

If I wanted to go to Milan over Easter the plane ticket was well over a GBP100, particularly at weekends, if I want to go now it is GBP50 return, car hire for a week GBP140, now it is GBP90, apartment in a ski resort GBP500 now GBP150, yet these business too have fixed costs.

The peak and off peak price differential of Euro20 Euros is a joke and no wonder people stay away from ski resorts at this time of the year.

If you went to a restaurant who could provide you with only two courses of a three course meal, would you be happy to still pay the same because of their fixed overheads?

And there are still overheads when your shut down and no one is there, so you might be better off charging a lot less end of season and making a loss.

Re:late season ski passes

Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:38:24 GMT

How much is a regular ski pass? I don't ski much outside Verbier, Chamonix sometimes and Mt Blanc ski pass is only 52 Euros, so 20 Euro is a reasonably big doscount.

When ou shut down you save a lot on running lifts, first of all on electricity. You also reduce personnel-related costs greatly.

You comparison with flying to Milan over holidays to normal flying is not a valid one. Airlines and car hire companies are ripping you off generally over holidays periods. The same is with restaurants example - you pay per course there generally, but you don't pay per run or per lift in ski resorts, so the same logic cannot apply.

Re:late season ski passes

Mon, 23 Apr 2012 14:44:17 GMT

My comments were not particularly aimed at the Swiss resorts where he exchange rate has hit the Swiss tourist industry - however that is not the same as inflation.

As a rule of thumb the French resorts poular with foreign skiers seemed to have had a bout of astronomical inflation somewhat out of step with their counterparts in the other Euro countries.
Perhaps this was prompted by the arrival of Russians and lulled them into thinking that people would pay whatever was asked. Dual pricing was clearly going on in Les Arcs 3 or 4 years ago with the French / locals getting a better deal than outsiders.

Is it illegal - probably not but I doubt I'll go back there for the forseeable future because we felt we were being ripped off.
Going to Sauze D'Oulx again this year - prices seemed similar to 5 years ago - sure a bit on inflation but nothing like the greed of the 3V or Les Arcs.

Re:late season ski passes

Mon, 23 Apr 2012 15:18:25 GMT

Well, prices are driven by demand and in the end business don't care where their income is coming from, so it's understandable. Make money once you have an opportunity to do so seems to be the way most are operating these days. I don't know how the resorts compare in terms of terrain, entertainment etc. whatever you are looking for from a ski resort or ski holiday, but certainly if you feel you are ripped off you will be going to other places that will offer you better value for money. I don't know about dual prices though - sounds strange and not particularly legal, though locals may sometimes benefit from a saisonnaire card. Typically they would need to be employed in the resort though, but sometimes you can get it without it if you have a season-long accommodation. Ski instructors working for certain schools also may get discounts in some places. And patrollers as they are usually associated with the company running resorts lifts which negotiates this deal and offers it as a part of fringe benefits to their employees. But this would be fair and only expected as pay is not too high in resorts.

Re:late season ski passes

Mon, 23 Apr 2012 15:27:39 GMT

verbier_ski_bum wrote:How much is a regular ski pass? I don't ski much outside Verbier, Chamonix sometimes and Mt Blanc ski pass is only 52 Euros, so 20 Euro is a reasonably big doscount.

When ou shut down you save a lot on running lifts, first of all on electricity. You also reduce personnel-related costs greatly.

You comparison with flying to Milan over holidays to normal flying is not a valid one. Airlines and car hire companies are ripping you off generally over holidays periods. The same is with restaurants example - you pay per course there generally, but you don't pay per run or per lift in ski resorts, so the same logic cannot apply.

As opposed to the ski resorts ripping me off all year round!

I pay for a pass for all the lifts and when they close them I can not use them but still get charged.

Fact is unlike airlines and car hire companies I can not go to a ski pass comparison site and look for cheaper supplier.

Discount was 17% on the pass

Re:late season ski passes

Mon, 23 Apr 2012 16:21:34 GMT

Dave Mac explained really well what constitues the costs that is covered by ski pass prices, so even that you want to think that you are paying for open runs/working lifts this is not how it works in reality. People who can't afford lift passes don't usually ski, so paying for something and then complaining it's too expensive is a bit pointless. If you want ski pass comparisons, check resorts websites, this is open information and you can find yourself a better deal by simply looking. Snow-forecast.com usually provides links to resorts websites, so selection is huge. 20 euros at 17% would make a full price lift pass cost over a hundred euros. Which resort was it? If it's a day pass - this is way over what you would pay in most resorts - even Zermatt will be about 50 euros cheaper and they maintain some impressive network of lifts and underground tunnels. So yeah, it is too expensive, it's not even competitive and I suspect you probably got it wrong somewhere. Anyway, you can always reduce the costs of lift prices greatly if you buy a walker/tourer pass, invest in a touring rig and just walk up the slopes:)

Re:late season ski passes

Mon, 23 Apr 2012 20:08:23 GMT

If you were in Bormio (you mentioned Bormio in your other thread) why didn't you get a free pass?

It's not easy for a ski resort to extend the season; most of the employees have other jobs to go to when the ski season ends. Here they mainly work in the construction industry which shuts down for the winter.

You can't really compare ski lift companies with budget airlines and car hire companies. Lots of them were set up to provide employment for people living in the Alps, to prevent depopulation. Many of them are still at least partially in public ownership, 23.3% of the shares (the largest share holding) in the Zermatt lift company belong to bourgeoisie, 25.66% of the shares (also the largest shareholding) in Televerbier are owned by the commune and the bourgeoisie of Bagnes. Profit is not the primary motivation.

Re:late season ski passes

Mon, 23 Apr 2012 20:24:50 GMT

Bornio

So he did and it is still true of virtually every other businesses that they have fixed overhead but they do not get away with charging full price if they are not providing a full service.

I was just thinking, you wouldn't want to buy a roller ski bag. The wheels have broken off while being thrown around by the luggage loaders at the airport, a new one cost GBP80 but I sell you it for GBP60.

Re:late season ski passes

Mon, 23 Apr 2012 21:26:20 GMT

No, I wouldn't buy a roller ski bag without wheels as it has no value and typically ends up in trash, unlike skiing. Did they kick you out from the lift and made you walk half way up the slope so that you didn't get "full service" even that you paid for it? Full service doesn't necessarily mean all runs/lifts open as you are not being charged for number of runs - Dave explained but it doesn't seem you got it if you are trying to compare this to the roller bag without wheels. I think you got a reasonable discount for skiing in a fairly popular resort. If you don't like it, maybe don't go there next time but I don't think it will be much different elsewhere.

Re:late season ski passes

Mon, 23 Apr 2012 23:49:31 GMT

Quite an interesting discussion.

The analagy of airlines is worth exploring. Airlines adjust prices by knowing the occupancy rate on a minute by minute basis ~ because of the internet. Consequently, the prices change, several times a day, particularly as you get closer to the day.

Many of my ski ventures take place midweek to midweek, simply because the flight element of my ski cost reduces from GBP160ish, at weekend, to GBP60ish. However,rail/taxi/b&b/lunch/dinner/drinks/ski hire & lift pass costs all remain the same. They are all predicted at the start of the season.

In reality, some of these prices do change. Accomodation cost will increase in February ~ because owners will predict the numbers of people, based on last years numbers, and the current economic climate. They do not have the instant internet market feedback that airlines do.