Skidding the end of my turns

Does anyone know a good exercise to stop me skidding out of the last part of my turn? I've been told (by people who follow me) that I push out a spray of snow on the exit of each turn and my legs are always tired at the end of the day.

I try to lean back at the end of the turn but that doesn't feel right.

Tx for any advice

Hire some old style skis dude! Then you'll spray snow all the way round... but, seriously, it sounds to me like you lack pressure on the outside. Don't lean back - try and push down into the snow, with the ball of your foot, as you leave the turn?

HTH, Tone

Hello,
Despite the fact that i don't have you seen skiing, and only based upon your description, i have following advise.
It is realy a matter of pressure on the sidecut of a ski. Normally at the end of your turn you could reduce the combined force of forward pressure and lateral kneeforce directed to the top of the mountainside. Not only the forces on your knees must be correct but also the position of your hips and thighs. Try to maintain them as still as possible. Do not sweep your hips thru the turn. A major frequent fault is also rotating the shoulders towards top mountainside. Via your back degree any rotation of shoulders or even at level of hips will be translated in a force modification at your knees. Any changing factor will be transmitted via your knees and boots onto the ski's.
So, i'll hope this will get you closer to non-slipping turns.

Read from snowplow to,,,,,string

Ski instructor is correct in all his solutions, however you will not benefit from advice since there is too much to remember.
Take lessons!
Stay on easy run and try to make "perfect" turn with not sliding!
How?
Slow down
Three stages in ski turns; EDGE PRESSURE STEER.
No amount of talking will help here. See above instructor on slope.
Learn what above mean not just in head but how to apply!

Your problem is very common. You have tried the traditional approach and have been given a lot of tips but nothing worked. Try alternative approach. It is based on a "carving turn on the inside ski". This contradicts a fundamental principle of long standing in the skiing world, that of applying pressure to the outside ski. However it does work and has been tried out by skiers of differing standards, all of whom made exceptionally fast progress with some of them ?leaping? up to an advanced level in next to no time. Visit http://www.mamyrin.com

This topic came back to the top and as it is something that has intrested me since befor I started skiing (I'm really a snowboarder). I wanted to put up my observations for comment. In fact, and I really don't mean to sound conceited, I started skiing because I couldn't believe it was as hard to carve on skis as so many people made it look.

I bought a short pair of skis (130 but adult) with about a 12 m radius and set off to the top of a green run. I made sure I could hockey stop both sides and set off down the rest of the run. By the time I got to the bottom, I was making cross over medium railroad track turns with no skids. It took me the rest of the season to figure out cross under/through turns.

Now snowboarders learn to turn with a skidded turn at first but anyone who boards a lot ends up carving thier turns. So what was different about skiing. It seems to me that people who learned to ski on the old straight(ish) skis made a huge change of direction (pivot) while the ski was flat during the transition. Snowboarders have always had sidecuts and even beginners skidded turns had a more consistant change of direction.

So my observation was that many skiers have a tendency to flatten thier skis too early and even try to change direction during transition; a hang up from straight ski days (I understand that this maybe ok for racers having to make a gate, but not for free carving) . Skiers who start out on shaped skis may not have that problem.

The other difficulty I see for experienced skiers learning to carve is that the only model they see and I see being taught is the cross under (retraction) turn. Snowboarders usually start to carve with a cross over turn. I think it is much easier to understand and get the feel of edge pressure and up/down weighting with cross over turns. This better feel makes it easier to learn to hold some weighting movement in reserve to finish the turn w/o skidding. The cross over unweighting for the transition is easier as well.

Hope that makes sense

Trencher

Comments to what Pavelski said:
"Stay on easy run and try to make "perfect" turn with not sliding! How?" => Correct
"Slow down" => Correct
"Three stages in ski turns; EDGE PRESSURE STEER" => Correct but he does not say how to edge at slow speed? See the answer below
"No amount of talking will help here" => Talking helps - only children learn intuitively, most adults need to understand.
"See above instructor on slope" => you have probably done this many times before
"Learn what above mean not just in head but how to apply!" => True but you still need to have the WHAT_TO_DO in your head before applying. See www.mamyrin.net

Looking at the mamyrin article, and based on my own experience, I would have to agree with the general concept. However loading the inside ski does not I think, come naturally to most people, that is getting on to the outside edge of the inside ski.

I learned to inline skate a few years ago. This was befor I started skiing. It took a lot of drill time to start putting weight on my inside skate (one those drills I've since seen race coaches using with novice racers). So I don't think going straight to weighting the inside ski would easy, but trying to keep the weight even on both skis might.

If new skiers start out with the concept skis should always be parallel on corresponding edges (an inline skating term ?) and flat skis are to be avoided at first, they would be in the same mode as snowboarders. A beginner snowboarder learns the hard way to always be on edge by catching downhill edges and getting slammed. I could see taking beginner skiers through exactly the same progression that snowboarder are taught. In other words treating the two skis in parallel as a single board.

Snowboarders (especially that take lessons) soon learn the importance of weight shifts along the board and I think this is a concept beginning skiers are slow to learn traditionally. and affects thier ability to carve later.

But here's the big problem I see with such an approach. Snowboarding has a very steep initial learning curve. It takes several hours of work to even start linking skidded turns down the hill. So many concepts must be aquired at once, edging, weight shifts. angulation and balance. A beginning skier can be linking wedge turns down the hill in an hour, with no concept of weight shift (fore/aft), balance edging or angulation (in fact, the only concept they would have is that you pressure the outside ski to turn). It would be the easy way but harder later, or the hard way easier later.

I make these comments as someone who has no experience of formal ski instruction. I was an instructer trainer of white water kayaking, and have a pretty good eye for breaking skills down and descerning the concepts involved. I love to watch ski and snowboard instructors, but would hate to be bound by the governing body's progressions, models and outlines. When I learned to ski, I wanted it to be an exercise in guided discovery, with my guide being what I saw as good or not so good on the hill.

Intrestingly white water kayaking like skiing went through a fundemental change in equipment several years ago. Kayaks went from nearly 4m long to less than 2m long in a few short years. The techniques required changed drastically. It was hard for many people to adapt to the new skills and style. This was especially true for instructors. Who with ingrained models and out of date techniques really struggled. The govering body in the US was very slow to admit thier precious content no longer met the needs of students.

Two aspects of this have great parallels in skiing. When the techniques taught finally change, the racers turn round and say "that's not new, we've been doing that for years". The other similarity is that the less instuction you had in the old school, the easy it is to adapt your concepts to the new school.

Trencher

Any new approach should be "tested" in real conditions; any theory in ski technique has a little value if it cannot be used in practice. However, even if it works, it does not automatically mean that it will be recognised. As Trencher said, instructors are "bound by the governing bodies progressions, models and outlines".

But the new approach described at www.mamyrin.net does work, it has been tried out by skiers of differing standards with intermediates ?leaping? up to an advanced level in next to no time.

If you are an intermediate skier, try the new method on a slope where you feel comfortable. Do all usual things if you know them (inclination, angulation, standing over the centre of your feet, etc.) but put most of your weight on the inside ski and don't plant the poles. Be patient, try for 30 min... and magic will occur.

Reflecting further, and thinking intermediate level, concentrating on the inside ski does make sense. As I mentioned above, I didn't have to make much of a conscious effort to weight the inside ski because that is good Inline skate technique. Another good reason for skiers to inline skate maybe.

When I carve turns, I initially put about 70% weight on my outside ski. At apex of the turn I"m about 50/50, so the skis share the load as the forces start to peak. In a cross under (retraction) transition, I lighten up the outside ski a little earlier than the inside ski during unweighting. Then as I extend and begin the new turn, there is more pressure on the outside ski again. At least, thats what I think I'm doing.

Trencher

Try skiing with some carving skis.
These skis are really easy to hold the edge, ie. not skidding. You must turn with the natural arc of the ski which is usually about 12m radius on carving skis. The turns are fast as you are riding on the edges so practice on a low gradient (i.e. a wide green run). Watch out for beginners as you tend to use the whole width of the piste.

Another tip is to weight the uphill edge of the uphill ski and always stay centered on the skis with your calfs pushing on the front of your boots.