Pole position (excuse the pun)

Trencher wrote:

I have never read a single article that describes how the pole plant is directly related to the use of the skis. 

1. a trigger point in turn initiation or a timing aid.

2. balance support, in turns with high edge set or pronounced check it's an aid to balance at the point of maximum deceleration

3. aid to leg rotation, a momentary anchor to aid leg rotation into the new direction without disrupting balance or posture.

4. momentary torque in initiating quick, tight turns.

Trencher wrote:

Very occasionally you see a GS racer use a pole plant. 

Only if you're watching GS very occasionally.

Ise, I can understand that if you ski in the back country, you need poles to get around and you may well find uses for them while descending.

I should clarify that I'm talking about the regular, on piste skiing that most people do.

You bring up that timing thing again though, I just don't understand that you need to swing a pole to in order for your brain to know it's time to turn or set an edge. It just looks like it's a case of finding something to do with the pole while your skiing. Swinging the pole to put your body in a certain position is using the pole as training aid. You could assume that position without encumbering yourself with poles.

Jan mentions that it looks like he uses his pole to assist finishing, in his spinning a 360 video and that it shouldn't be needed. By conventional thinking on pole use, he would have been correct in using his pole to assist the spin. The alternative is that, if you don't need the pole to spin, you shouldn't use it...

Trencher

Trencher wrote:

Ise, I can understand that if you ski in the back country, you need poles to get around and you may well find uses for them while descending.

I should clarify that I'm talking about the regular, on piste skiing that most people do. 

And I should clarify I'm talking about what we learn when we're training to be ski instructors

Unless you're on the flattest of slopes you need poles for all the reasons I've given, no one manages without and those that try are simply unable to handle even moderately difficult slopes at any speed.

ise wrote:

And I should clarify I'm talking about what we learn when we're training to be ski instructors

Unless you're on the flattest of slopes you need poles for all the reasons I've given, no one manages without and those that try are simply unable to handle even moderately difficult slopes at any speed. 

So, way back in the mists of time, when I was being taught by BASI teachers, we had our poles taken off us for several days at a time. We were skiing French red grade runs (Les Arcs) carving all sized radius turns at speed.
That does'nt happen these days then?

1

I don't know how many people here white water kayak, but it is also a sport where equipment has changed.

Twenty years ago kayaks started to shrink, from 4M to 3M in length. The skills and how they were taught remained the same. Then a little over ten yeas ago, the changes became more radical, not only in length (less than 2M), but shape as well. The stroke that is used to turn a kayak is known as a sweep stroke and there was a time honoured meathod to teach that stroke. The stroke as it had been taught became redundent overnight. The people who run instruction (former olumpians and US team members) in the US continued to insist that the redundent stroke was still to be taught and was relevent. The BCU in the UK appeared to be quicker to revise thier instruction.

When something is accepted as the norm for decades, it often it becomes so entrenched that no one even quieries it.

Then of course there is the comparison to snowboarders, who despite the disadvantages of being perch on a single plank run just about any descent that skiers do, only without poles.

Trencher

Poor snowboarders, no poles I think skiers everywhere should donate their old poles to a needy knuckledragger

I remember my days of ski tuition with no poles as quite liberating. Definitely good discipline for quieting the upper body during a turn.

I have so much to say on this it's unreal. Drag your pole baskets (hands forward) by the arch of your foot. Once you have planted your pole, make sure it remains in contact with the snow after the turn and drag it once more. As for your outside pole, it should always drag along the ground aswell-for purposes of a beginner/intermediate skier which i'm assuming you are.

Rossfra8 wrote:

I have so much to say on this it's unreal. Drag your pole baskets (hands forward) by the arch of your foot. Once you have planted your pole, make sure it remains in contact with the snow after the turn and drag it once more. As for your outside pole, it should always drag along the ground aswell-for purposes of a beginner/intermediate skier which i'm assuming you are. 

Thanks for that. I am a beginner heading towards intermediate level. I can go down a black but don't look pretty, that sort of level.
I don't think i was keeping the outside pole in contact with the snow, which made it look like I was flapping my poles around. A few exercises on my hands position should hopefully sort that one out. So many things to do and remember....

pole planting posters: your a tough lot I must say!

I can tell you that when your hips are whittled away and ankles so worn you fall about the bedroom putting your socks on, the last thing you look for is extensive 'carving'.

Carving throws powerfull forces back into the hips/knees. I've known BASI Teachers advocate caution in teaching young children carving for that very reason. Immature joints still forming etc.

All that seems to have been forgotten due to the ease carving can be done on modern gear. Time will tell on that one.
Of couse, I'm talking about extreme angles of carve on that one. I also recognise that today's angles are less of a loading due to current designs of ski when skied at less than expert pace

bandit wrote:

ise wrote:

And I should clarify I'm talking about what we learn when we're training to be ski instructors

Unless you're on the flattest of slopes you need poles for all the reasons I've given, no one manages without and those that try are simply unable to handle even moderately difficult slopes at any speed. 

So, way back in the mists of time, when I was being taught by BASI teachers, we had our poles taken off us for several days at a time. We were skiing French red grade runs (Les Arcs) carving all sized radius turns at speed.
That does'nt happen these days then? 

It does, all ski instructors do it but I think they're (nearly) all doing it wrong, it's clear that some (too many) students are coming away with an impression that poles are optional in some way. If that's happening then the instructor isn't communicating the purpose of the exercise and that's not going to work for a lot of students, people like you (I'm think I'm right) like to know the how and why of an exercise, some people don't of course but instructors ought to be explaining that. In part the purpose of that exercise is to learn and emphasise the PET principle (Pressure, Edge, Turn in various orders). On a uniform slope the ski will turn, or carve, wth a simple Pressure, giving Edge then a Turn.

Carve turns are fun, railing at high speed even more so, but it's only one turn we use to get all over the mountain. It's around this point people get confused, get some carving skis and discard their poles. You even see it around here, I saw some people the other week doing it, peak holiday time, they probably see lessons doing it, or misunderstand their own lessons, and reckon a carving ski doesn't need a pole.

Trencher wrote:

When something is accepted as the norm for decades, it often it becomes so entrenched that no one even quieries it.
 

Your analogy is just plain wrong, we adapted technique and teaching a lot to deal with advances in kit. For BASI the "Central Theme" reflects what carving skis are and what they do and it's no different for CSIA or PSIA and at the ISTD levels.

I think the suggestion that people who've taken training and passed exams as ski instructors lack insight into what they're learning and teaching is actually pretty insulting actually.