Pole position (excuse the pun)

Dshenberger wrote:

I know you were all ripping on Bode Miller for flailing his poles, but here is an interesting video demonstrating his pole planting views.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2KAtSx0SnPs
 

So who here double pole plants like bode on this video and who single pole plants? Any technical pro's and con's of each or is it just a personal preference?

Trencher i'm just quoting what some of Canada's top skiers and the CSIA say. if there was no need for poles, why would they even have been put into skiing?

bennyboy wrote:

Trencher i'm just quoting what some of Canada's top skiers and the CSIA say. if there was no need for poles, why would they even have been put into skiing? 

Well, I remember reading about Sir Arthur Conan Doyle in Davos (credited with introducing alpine skiing to the Brits). They used a long single pole to push themselves along ala a punt on a river.I think they also used it as a rudder (a brake on one side). My guess is that two poles then made more sense for pushing yourself along on the flats. Now you've got these two poles in your hands, what do you do with them when going down hill ? Bearing in mind that skis consisted of two planks of wood with a point on the end that would be very hard to turn, Someone discovered that you could aid turning by planting a pole and pivoting around it. Basically, it again works as a brake.

Then as skiing progressed and skis became more turn friendly, other things were thought up to make use of the poles that had been needed for the flats.

The primary reason for poles is still to push yourself around. If I go touring or do powder on skis, then I would always take poles.

If snowboarding had evolved before skiing and the first skis were like this years models with young people only using them, no one would be using poles on piste.

When I'm a very old man who can't get up after a fall on the flat without the use of a pole, I may start using them on piste. Until then I don't need to carry around a crutch


Trencher

82ross wrote:

Dshenberger wrote:

I know you were all ripping on Bode Miller for flailing his poles, but here is an interesting video demonstrating his pole planting views.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2KAtSx0SnPs
 

So who here double pole plants like bode on this video and who single pole plants? Any technical pro's and con's of each or is it just a personal preference? 

Now people have said that pole plants help them with timing. In the pole plant instruction video it is quite clear that the pole plant is timed to the turn of the skis and not the other way round. At no time did they say the timing of the turn is to be determined by the pole plant. It's just finding something to do with the pole while you are skiing. Do you really think Bode needed pole plants to make those turns ? or would he have swing the poles like that off camera ?

Spot all the pole plants Bode makes here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNIiCOesUEo

He must be having a lot of trouble with his timing .

OK, he did need the poles for thier proper purpose at the start - pushing off

Trencher

You are quite amusing, Trencher! I am nearly convinced to never us poles again! I will try it my first day at Heavenly. Especially, since my shoulder still isn't healed, and I don't want to do anything to mess it up again.

As for Bode: I think he just does whatever he has to to get down the mountain! He is an innovator, and a natural at making his way down fast. You did bring to mind another point for poles, though. Those gates have to hurt at 60+, and the poles seem like the best solution to taking a beating.

Interesting reading on subject!

The Pole Plant in Modern Technique
by Greg Gurshman

I believe it is hardly a secret that pole plants have been used by ski racers for a very long time in slalom and GS. However, while conducting coaching seminars in US and Canada, I have discovered a number of misconceptions about the use of the pole plant in modern technique. Many coaches and ski instructors believe that for making carved turns on modern slalom skis the pole plant is not needed. Some go even further to say that the racers do not even use the pole plants any longer. Others are still of the opinion that the pole plant is still used primarily for turning the skis. In this article I will try to highlight the incorrect nature of these erroneous assumptions.

First of all, I would like to point out that while I will be talking about the use of a pole plant in slalom, most of what will be said here applies to GS and even the speed disciplines. The evolution of ski equipment has resulted in contemporary super-G and DH courses with plenty of complete round turns in them. In order to efficiently link the arcs of such round turns ski racers often use a pole plant or a pole touch, even in speed events. Speaking of slalom, we can say that the pole plant is generally used most of the time everywhere, except for straight flat sections of the course.

To emphasize the necessity of a pole plant, Austrian coaches often repeat the saying: “if you left your pole plant at home, run there and get it instead of running the course”. I would recommend this little rule to all junior racers and their coaches.

For a number of years before the emergence of new slalom skis with the increased side cuts, racers often used the so-called blocking pole plant. When executing the blocking pole plant the skier turns the hand and the wrist away from the body, so the pole goes into the snow not perpendicularly, but at a small angle, as I demonstrate here with my right arm (frame 4), at the bottom of the sequence:

pavelski wrote:

Interesting reading on subject!

The Pole Plant in Modern Technique
by Greg Gurshman
Others are still of the opinion that the pole plant is still used primarily for turning the skis.
 

So does the pole plant have anything to do with turning the skis ?

I have never read a single article that describes how the pole plant is directly related to the use of the skis.

This guy just said, You need them. He did not say why.

SL is of course an exception.

Very occasionally you see a GS racer use a pole plant. This is rather like the people where I live and thier big pick up trucks. 364 days of the year, they drive around, doing 15 mpg in thier 5 to 7 litre mega trucks. Thier families are riding uncomfortably in the cab of thier cowboy sports cars.The most that ever goes in the back is a small tool bag or a few bags of shopping. Then one day, they need to carry a piece of new furniture or big screen TV home from the store. O boy, it's a good job they had the vehicle to do it in.

Trencher

pavelski wrote:

Interesting reading on subject!

The Pole Plant in Modern Technique
by Greg Gurshman



To emphasize the necessity of a pole plant, Austrian coaches often repeat the saying: “if you left your pole plant at home, run there and get it instead of running the course”.  

Not much info here, but again, it sounds as if the pole is needed just as an aid to body movement. There are all kinds of devices people have used to teach good technique, but no one carries them around al the time.

Trencher

Trencher wrote:

I have never read a single article that describes how the pole plant is directly related to the use of the skis. 

1. a trigger point in turn initiation or a timing aid.

2. balance support, in turns with high edge set or pronounced check it's an aid to balance at the point of maximum deceleration

3. aid to leg rotation, a momentary anchor to aid leg rotation into the new direction without disrupting balance or posture.

4. momentary torque in initiating quick, tight turns.

Trencher wrote:

Very occasionally you see a GS racer use a pole plant. 

Only if you're watching GS very occasionally.

Ise, I can understand that if you ski in the back country, you need poles to get around and you may well find uses for them while descending.

I should clarify that I'm talking about the regular, on piste skiing that most people do.

You bring up that timing thing again though, I just don't understand that you need to swing a pole to in order for your brain to know it's time to turn or set an edge. It just looks like it's a case of finding something to do with the pole while your skiing. Swinging the pole to put your body in a certain position is using the pole as training aid. You could assume that position without encumbering yourself with poles.

Jan mentions that it looks like he uses his pole to assist finishing, in his spinning a 360 video and that it shouldn't be needed. By conventional thinking on pole use, he would have been correct in using his pole to assist the spin. The alternative is that, if you don't need the pole to spin, you shouldn't use it...

Trencher

Trencher wrote:

Ise, I can understand that if you ski in the back country, you need poles to get around and you may well find uses for them while descending.

I should clarify that I'm talking about the regular, on piste skiing that most people do. 

And I should clarify I'm talking about what we learn when we're training to be ski instructors

Unless you're on the flattest of slopes you need poles for all the reasons I've given, no one manages without and those that try are simply unable to handle even moderately difficult slopes at any speed.

ise wrote:

And I should clarify I'm talking about what we learn when we're training to be ski instructors

Unless you're on the flattest of slopes you need poles for all the reasons I've given, no one manages without and those that try are simply unable to handle even moderately difficult slopes at any speed. 

So, way back in the mists of time, when I was being taught by BASI teachers, we had our poles taken off us for several days at a time. We were skiing French red grade runs (Les Arcs) carving all sized radius turns at speed.
That does'nt happen these days then?